I agree that to some point the rules regarding broadcast hours here in England are somewhat old fashioned. Yet they aren’t these days designed to protect crowd attendance in the Premier League but in the lower leagues. As a comparison consider these stats on average attendances in the next tier down in the 5 top flight countries:
England:
22 sides out of 24 average crowds higher than 10,000 and no sides attract an average crowd of less than 5,000
Germany:
13 sides average crowd of over 10,000 only 1 side averages less than 5,000
Spain:
6 sides average more than 10,000 9 sides average less 5,000 and 2 sides get just over the 5,000 mark
Italy:
4 sides average more than 10,000 but 12 sides average less than 5,000
France:
Only 1 team attracts more than 10,000 spectators on average but 8 sides get less than 5,000
Would a live Bundesliga game on BT Sport hit attendances at some of the lower league sides? Possibly but the other 4 countries have deals that show all games from the 2nd tier (with the possible exception of the Segunda in Spain where I believe the majority of games are shown where a TV deal exists). Of course there are other factors to take into consideration but I feel there is definitely a case to state that the amount of football on TV in other countries does impact on attendances.
I was glad that El Classico was repeated although a bit annoyed it was done at the expense of Cordoba-Sevilla. Iwish both BT and Sky would repeat more of their football (these days the most you get is a 90 minute re-run on BT or for Sky even less – 60 minutes for the Barca, Real and Athleti games)
The strength in depth of support in English football is unlike anything else in Europe. You cannot apply same rules for different supporting cultures. Sure i'd of liked to of seen the first 15 mins legally but you know what? If it protects the football league i am all for it.
The strength in depth of support in English football is unlike anything else in Europe. You cannot apply same rules for different supporting cultures. Sure i'd of liked to of seen the first 15 mins legally but you know what? If it protects the football league i am all for it.
There is zero evidence to suggest that showing the first 15 minutes of a football match that starts at 5pm would hit attendances. Do you have any?
There is bugger all difference between a match starting at 5.15pm or 5pm. Nobody is suddenly going to not attend a lower league match because a match starts at 5pm rather than 5.15pm. If anything, they wouldnt attend it at all regardless of which of the times it starts at.
I agree that to some point the rules regarding broadcast hours here in England are somewhat old fashioned. Yet they aren’t these days designed to protect crowd attendance in the Premier League but in the lower leagues. As a comparison consider these stats on average attendances in the next tier down in the 5 top flight countries:
England:
22 sides out of 24 average crowds higher than 10,000 and no sides attract an average crowd of less than 5,000
Germany:
13 sides average crowd of over 10,000 only 1 side averages less than 5,000
6 sides average more than 10,000 9 sides average less 5,000 and 2 sides get just over the 5,000 mark
Germany's crowds very strong and they have All their games televisied on Saturday at 2.30pm UK Time and the 2. Bundesliga usually have games live/Konferenz at 12.30pm UK time. In fact also 3. Liga games also odd game shown regionally. Still high crowds.
The strength in depth of support in English football is unlike anything else in Europe. You cannot apply same rules for different supporting cultures. Sure i'd of liked to of seen the first 15 mins legally but you know what? If it protects the football league i am all for it.
Germany is a very close 2nd. Very strong 2nd tier and decent third tier. After that becomes more regional. However good times right down the system.
Unfortunately we don't have a lot of evidence to support a case either way as currently here in the UK we don't have football being shown between 14.45 and 17.15.
There have been a few occasions where European football has been shown by Eurosport between these times from the continent from both Serie B and Ligue 1. I gather they were fined on both occasions. I can vouch for the fact that during one of the Ligue 1 games the crowd at the match I attended in person (Northampton-Plymouth in the first round of the FA Cup) didn't appear to be adversely affected by the showing of the match.
I also believe that if you conducted a poll at random at football league grounds asking if this weekend the coverage of either Dortmund-Hannover or PSG-Bordeaux on BT Sport or Sky Sports (I appreciate currently the later doesn't have the relevant rights) would have deterred that individual from attending the match in question the answer would emphatically be no. By the same token coverage of Real-Barca starting at 17.00 would not deter fans from attending either as a home or away fan.
However, if you asked the same individual if they would have reconsidered their attendance had Sunderland-Arsenal, Liverpool-Hull or any other or all of the Premiership matches been available either via an existing sub option or an additional option I think a percentage certainly would be tempted to stay at home and I think a decrease in attendance around the football league would be the inevitable result. I hold this to be a bad thing.
So to conclude, I support the black-out period of domestic matches but don't see why German/French/Spanish or Italian games couldn't be shown during this time.
Unfortunately we don't have a lot of evidence to support a case either way as currently here in the UK we don't have football being shown between 14.45 and 17.15.
There have been a few occasions where European football has been shown by Eurosport between these times from the continent from both Serie B and Ligue 1. I gather they were fined on both occasions. I can vouch for the fact that during one of the Ligue 1 games the crowd at the match I attended in person (Northampton-Plymouth in the first round of the FA Cup) didn't appear to be adversely affected by the showing of the match.
I also believe that if you conducted a poll at random at football league grounds asking if this weekend the coverage of either Dortmund-Hannover or PSG-Bordeaux on BT Sport or Sky Sports (I appreciate currently the later doesn't have the relevant rights) would have deterred that individual from attending the match in question the answer would emphatically be no. By the same token coverage of Real-Barca starting at 17.00 would not deter fans from attending either as a home or away fan.
However, if you asked the same individual if they would have reconsidered their attendance had Sunderland-Arsenal, Liverpool-Hull or any other or all of the Premiership matches been available either via an existing sub option or an additional option I think a percentage certainly would be tempted to stay at home and I think a decrease in attendance around the football league would be the inevitable result. I hold this to be a bad thing.
So to conclude, I support the black-out period of domestic matches but don't see why German/French/Spanish or Italian games couldn't be shown during this time.
The issues surrounding this weekend are more around common sense. Of course most rational people can see why 3pm kickoffs arent shown, fair enough. But the Spanish match is a match which kicks off at 5pm, only 15 minutes before the blackout ends, and will make sod all difference to lower league attendances for the sake of 15 bastard minutes!
The only logical solution is to change the period to end at 5pm if 5pm is to become a regular kickoff time for televised matches.
The strength in depth of support in English football is unlike anything else in Europe. You cannot apply same rules for different supporting cultures. Sure i'd of liked to of seen the first 15 mins legally but you know what? If it protects the football league i am all for it.
There is zero evidence to suggest that showing the first 15 minutes of a football match that starts at 5pm would hit attendances. Do you have any?
There is bugger all difference between a match starting at 5.15pm or 5pm. Nobody is suddenly going to not attend a lower league match because a match starts at 5pm rather than 5.15pm. If anything, they wouldnt attend it at all regardless of which of the times it starts at.
You have to take a zero tolerance approach to defending the blackout. If they give in here and let a Spanish game come on early then the next thing will be oh let us have foreign games which start at 3pm. Then it will be Prem games at 3. Any crack in the wall could bring down the whole building.
You have to take a zero tolerance approach to defending the blackout. If they give in here and let a Spanish game come on early then the next thing will be oh let us have foreign games which start at 3pm. Then it will be Prem games at 3. Any crack in the wall could bring down the whole building.
Its flawed as it is so why not bring it down if it means you can then rebuild it for the modern game & era?
For all the pontificating that certain people are doing in this thread about the blackout protecting lower league audiences, not one of you can produce any shred of evidence that states showing a Spanish football match at 5pm instead of 5.15pm would hurt attendances.
You have to take a zero tolerance approach to defending the blackout. If they give in here and let a Spanish game come on early then the next thing will be oh let us have foreign games which start at 3pm. Then it will be Prem games at 3. Any crack in the wall could bring down the whole building.
There is no reason why games can't be shown from 5pm - nobody is going to stay in from a 3pm to watch a match that kicks off at 5pm instead of 5:15 - the match kicks off at 5pm regardless, so being unable to watch the first 15 minutes does nothing but inconvenience people who want to watch it - it doesn't help lower league clubs at all.
I struggle to believe there'd be any concrete evidence of this supposed effect anyway, it gets said as the reason for the blackout but with no evidence to support the supposed effects.
The assumption that a huge proportion of fans who wouldn't go to a match will suddenly get up and go is a stretch at best anyway - I support my club and my club only. If there is a game on TV when I'm not going to watch my team or watching them on TV, depending on whether I have a ticket, then if it's an attractive enough game I'll watch it. What I won't do is decide to go and watch another team's live game instead, because I don't support them, so why would I? Similarly, fans of lower league sides would watch their games over other televised ones anyway - if you're a supporter of that team, then why wouldn't you?
Having European games blocked is ridiculous, and your justification for blocking them doesn't hold up - there is no reason they couldn't be allowed while domestic games are still blocked, even if I do think it's quite ridiculous that it's managed to last this long on the strength (or lack of) of evidence available.
DId you read what I wrote? I'm not saying that allowing Madrid v Barca to start at 5pm would affect attendances. I'm saying that any move in that direction would be the beginning of the end of the the whole blackout. As soon as the tv brigade get their victory on 5pm starts they will move on to 3pm foreign games, get that and it's on to 3pm EPL games. You people won't be satisfied with small concessions and you know it, you are already talking on this thread about the next bites you want to take out of the blackout.
@Bosox - I don't think that showing a Bundesliga or Ligue 1 game that kicked off between 15.00-17.00 would have any discernible effect on attendances in the Football League, Football Conference or lower. Fans of those teams would attend regardless of whether PSG-Bordeaux was being shown on BT Sport or what have you.
From my own recollection when European football was shown live about 10 years ago presumably as some sort of trial by Eurosport the attendances at the game I was at didn't appear to be unduly affected. And I don't believe any of the 6,000 in attendance that afternoon at Sixfields, Northampton (whilst the heady delight of Lyon-Lens was being shown on TV) would have changed their plans had they known there was a French game on Eurosport 2 that afternoon.
Therefore stating that from European football would undoutedly stem a move for the Premiership doesn't add up.
I wholeheartedly endorse the Premiership black-out on Saturday at 3pm and I believe it is one key factors (among several) that contribute to the very strong attendance figures that the English lower leagues post in comparison to their European equivalents.
I wonder if any research has been conducted on the Aviva Premiership as I believe Saturday afternoon usually sees 2/3 games kick off at this time whilst another is also shown live. Do fans of a team not being shown on TV prefer to stay at home and watch that rather than attend in person at their local team? Not a retorical question I would be genuinely interested to know. Presumably the RFU or whoever organises the league doesn't feel that TV represents a threat to attendances? Also it is also possible to show Top-14 rugby from France or Super-12 from South Africa at the same time as those afternoon kick-offs? I wonder if fans are tempted by that?? Whatever the case I think it is quite a different approach
Comments
Indeed.
That poster will have to forgive my inability to be in Spain on Saturday as I was at Old Trafford on Sunday..
Funnily enough, that's an actual stadium.
England:
22 sides out of 24 average crowds higher than 10,000 and no sides attract an average crowd of less than 5,000
Germany:
13 sides average crowd of over 10,000 only 1 side averages less than 5,000
Spain:
6 sides average more than 10,000 9 sides average less 5,000 and 2 sides get just over the 5,000 mark
Italy:
4 sides average more than 10,000 but 12 sides average less than 5,000
France:
Only 1 team attracts more than 10,000 spectators on average but 8 sides get less than 5,000
Would a live Bundesliga game on BT Sport hit attendances at some of the lower league sides? Possibly but the other 4 countries have deals that show all games from the 2nd tier (with the possible exception of the Segunda in Spain where I believe the majority of games are shown where a TV deal exists). Of course there are other factors to take into consideration but I feel there is definitely a case to state that the amount of football on TV in other countries does impact on attendances.
I was glad that El Classico was repeated although a bit annoyed it was done at the expense of Cordoba-Sevilla. Iwish both BT and Sky would repeat more of their football (these days the most you get is a 90 minute re-run on BT or for Sky even less – 60 minutes for the Barca, Real and Athleti games)
There is zero evidence to suggest that showing the first 15 minutes of a football match that starts at 5pm would hit attendances. Do you have any?
There is bugger all difference between a match starting at 5.15pm or 5pm. Nobody is suddenly going to not attend a lower league match because a match starts at 5pm rather than 5.15pm. If anything, they wouldnt attend it at all regardless of which of the times it starts at.
Germany's crowds very strong and they have All their games televisied on Saturday at 2.30pm UK Time and the 2. Bundesliga usually have games live/Konferenz at 12.30pm UK time. In fact also 3. Liga games also odd game shown regionally. Still high crowds.
Germany is a very close 2nd. Very strong 2nd tier and decent third tier. After that becomes more regional. However good times right down the system.
Unfortunately we don't have a lot of evidence to support a case either way as currently here in the UK we don't have football being shown between 14.45 and 17.15.
There have been a few occasions where European football has been shown by Eurosport between these times from the continent from both Serie B and Ligue 1. I gather they were fined on both occasions. I can vouch for the fact that during one of the Ligue 1 games the crowd at the match I attended in person (Northampton-Plymouth in the first round of the FA Cup) didn't appear to be adversely affected by the showing of the match.
I also believe that if you conducted a poll at random at football league grounds asking if this weekend the coverage of either Dortmund-Hannover or PSG-Bordeaux on BT Sport or Sky Sports (I appreciate currently the later doesn't have the relevant rights) would have deterred that individual from attending the match in question the answer would emphatically be no. By the same token coverage of Real-Barca starting at 17.00 would not deter fans from attending either as a home or away fan.
However, if you asked the same individual if they would have reconsidered their attendance had Sunderland-Arsenal, Liverpool-Hull or any other or all of the Premiership matches been available either via an existing sub option or an additional option I think a percentage certainly would be tempted to stay at home and I think a decrease in attendance around the football league would be the inevitable result. I hold this to be a bad thing.
So to conclude, I support the black-out period of domestic matches but don't see why German/French/Spanish or Italian games couldn't be shown during this time.
The issues surrounding this weekend are more around common sense. Of course most rational people can see why 3pm kickoffs arent shown, fair enough. But the Spanish match is a match which kicks off at 5pm, only 15 minutes before the blackout ends, and will make sod all difference to lower league attendances for the sake of 15 bastard minutes!
The only logical solution is to change the period to end at 5pm if 5pm is to become a regular kickoff time for televised matches.
Exactly right.
You have to take a zero tolerance approach to defending the blackout. If they give in here and let a Spanish game come on early then the next thing will be oh let us have foreign games which start at 3pm. Then it will be Prem games at 3. Any crack in the wall could bring down the whole building.
Its flawed as it is so why not bring it down if it means you can then rebuild it for the modern game & era?
Modern era for you means prioritising TV viewers over Lower League football. Big thanks but no thanks from me.
Put up or shut up.
I struggle to believe there'd be any concrete evidence of this supposed effect anyway, it gets said as the reason for the blackout but with no evidence to support the supposed effects.
The assumption that a huge proportion of fans who wouldn't go to a match will suddenly get up and go is a stretch at best anyway - I support my club and my club only. If there is a game on TV when I'm not going to watch my team or watching them on TV, depending on whether I have a ticket, then if it's an attractive enough game I'll watch it. What I won't do is decide to go and watch another team's live game instead, because I don't support them, so why would I? Similarly, fans of lower league sides would watch their games over other televised ones anyway - if you're a supporter of that team, then why wouldn't you?
Having European games blocked is ridiculous, and your justification for blocking them doesn't hold up - there is no reason they couldn't be allowed while domestic games are still blocked, even if I do think it's quite ridiculous that it's managed to last this long on the strength (or lack of) of evidence available.
Ah good, then we are in agreement then.
http://writingbetweenfriends.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/angry_old_woman1.jpg
From my own recollection when European football was shown live about 10 years ago presumably as some sort of trial by Eurosport the attendances at the game I was at didn't appear to be unduly affected. And I don't believe any of the 6,000 in attendance that afternoon at Sixfields, Northampton (whilst the heady delight of Lyon-Lens was being shown on TV) would have changed their plans had they known there was a French game on Eurosport 2 that afternoon.
Therefore stating that from European football would undoutedly stem a move for the Premiership doesn't add up.
I wholeheartedly endorse the Premiership black-out on Saturday at 3pm and I believe it is one key factors (among several) that contribute to the very strong attendance figures that the English lower leagues post in comparison to their European equivalents.
I wonder if any research has been conducted on the Aviva Premiership as I believe Saturday afternoon usually sees 2/3 games kick off at this time whilst another is also shown live. Do fans of a team not being shown on TV prefer to stay at home and watch that rather than attend in person at their local team? Not a retorical question I would be genuinely interested to know. Presumably the RFU or whoever organises the league doesn't feel that TV represents a threat to attendances? Also it is also possible to show Top-14 rugby from France or Super-12 from South Africa at the same time as those afternoon kick-offs? I wonder if fans are tempted by that?? Whatever the case I think it is quite a different approach
Wow, way to put words in my mouth...
Still looking for that evidence are you...?????