Are we discussing Tensing here? Because isn't that as he goes to Reach into the car?
Yes.......i thought that's who you meant when you said you didn't see his left arm move inside the car? Prior to that frame his right hand can be seen on the car roof so at that point he hadn't drawn his gun either. Freezing the frames isn't that easy but the point at which DuBose is shot, you see his body lurch back. We are talking in milliseconds here unfortunately.
Yes.......i thought that's who you meant when you said you didn't see his left arm move inside the car? Prior to that frame his right hand can be seen on the car roof so at that point he hadn't drawn his gun either. Freezing the frames isn't that easy but the point at which DuBose is shot, you see his body lurch back. We are talking in milliseconds here unfortunately.
No sorry I saw his left arm Move in the car, it also stays there although I'd question if it was trapped as such.
The question is of course whether he drew his gun to prevent him going or because his arm was in the car so he was protecting himself.
I'm still unsure how he ended up where he was when he was on the floor.
No sorry I saw his left arm Move in the car, it also stays there although I'd question if it was trapped as such.
The question is of course whether he drew his gun to prevent him going or because his arm was in the car so he was protecting himself.
I'm still unsure how he ended up where he was when he was on the floor.
It doesn't stay there. The man is fully visible and the cops arm is not in the car at all after he goes for the ignition, he's moved slightly back. Then it's visible that he put his arm back into the car and up to the man's arms to move them from his head. After he shoots him his left hand goes to the back edge of the open window. Clear as day. Select .25 speed and freeze frame it. I'm sure he was trying to stop the car moving and he fell back as it gathered speed.
I read over the thread and it seems justice is being served. All the officers I read say they wouldn't have done what he did. It will be up to a jury to determine whether it was murder one or voluntary manslaughter. It could or couldn't be racist. It shows that the cams are a good thing as there is at least evidence to argue over.
Just watched the video on YouTube. Tensing wasn't particularly rude or aggressive (but then he wasn't with Sam DuBose either, up until the moment he shot him in the head).
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost. ;-)
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.
Just watched the video on YouTube. Tensing wasn't particularly rude or aggressive (but then he wasn't with Sam DuBose either, up until the moment he shot him in the head).
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost. ;-)
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.
Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.
Yes, I believe Tensing has been fired. That's not quite what I meant by accountability though. If a police officer commits a crime in the course of their duties then they should be held to account in the same way as any other citizen would be. We both know that's not the case though - for example it's extremely rare for officers to be charged with perjury, let alone conspiracy to pervert the course of justice or manslaughter or murder.
FWIW, the DA who condemned Ray Tensing's conduct in shooting Samuel DuBose during a routine traffic stop was probably the polar opposite of the one who criticised Sandra Bland's response to the officer she encountered. Maybe a more common sense and less politicised justice system would better serve the rights enshrined in the Constitution and the interests of US society as a whole... ?
Any thoughts on the best way forward? Or do you think that things will eventually work themselves out without legislative change? I would be interested to hear your views on some of the other points I raise above, such as how perception of the police affects their effectiveness in dealing with communities who have long since grown to distrust them.
Good to see the driver had the sense (and was able!) to call him out without any crap, like being tased or shot for daring to try.
Absolutely - plus he was a lot more articulate and talkative than Du Bose, and I think that threw Tensing, who didn't seem to know what to say a lot of the time. He just expected his "orders" to be obeyed to the letter, like the arrogant clown he is. Also there was two of them in the car.
Yes, I believe Tensing has been fired. That's not quite what I meant by accountability though. If a police officer commits a crime in the course of their duties then they should be held to account in the same way as any other citizen would be. We both know that's not the case though - for example it's extremely rare for officers to be charged with perjury, let alone conspiracy to pervert the course of justice or manslaughter or murder.
FWIW, the DA who condemned Ray Tensing's conduct in shooting Samuel DuBose during a routine traffic stop was probably the polar opposite of the one who criticised Sandra Bland's response to the officer she encountered. Maybe a more common sense and less politicised justice system would better serve the rights enshrined in the Constitution and the interests of US society as a whole... ?
Any thoughts on the best way forward? Or do you think that things will eventually work themselves out without legislative change? I would be interested to hear your views on some of the other points I raise above, such as how perception of the police affects their effectiveness in dealing with communities who have long since grown to distrust them.
There's a difference between police and other professionals though. Most professionals don't face people who want to harm them and have no conscience about it. There was just another police killing a few days ago at a traffic stop. That's why officers are sometimes given the benefit of the doubt.
Dubose might have had marijuana and thousands of dollars in the car ( in my town they ask you to show receipts or where you got the money, if they suspect drug dealing).
The problem is that some of the Officers in the States have the same sort of attitudes that the Police here had in the 70's, That they can do whatever they like and that their buddies will lie for them.. Much harder when there is so much cctv, phone camera footage or body cams. Just have a look at the murder of Blair Peach in the 70's to see how much has changed in Britain in the last 40 years..
I understand your comparison, but armed with guns it's a whole lot more dangerous and frightening than anything's ever been here.
With belt and dash cams at least there's some hope of justice. That requirement doesn't even seem to be universal or any PO checking and being accountable for their camera capacity being full. It's a convenient get out clause if they claim they were full as we've already seen in the Sandra Bland case when absolute proof of what happened out of view was conveniently not available.. How many of them got away with it before doesn't bear thinking about. It's no surprise there's so much bitter resentment.
With belt and dash cams at least there's some hope of justice. That requirement doesn't even seem to be universal or any PO checking and being accountable for their camera capacity being full. It's a convenient get out clause if they claim they were full as we've already seen in the Sandra Bland case when absolute proof of what happened out of view was conveniently not available.. How many of them got away with it before doesn't bear thinking about. It's no surprise there's so much bitter resentment.
Agreed - there should be no excuse for missing video evidence. We've seen that happen too often for it to be co-incidence, in this country.
With belt and dash cams at least there's some hope of justice. That requirement doesn't even seem to be universal or any PO checking and being accountable for their camera capacity being full. It's a convenient get out clause if they claim they were full as we've already seen in the Sandra Bland case when absolute proof of what happened out of view was conveniently not available.. How many of them got away with it before doesn't bear thinking about. It's no surprise there's so much bitter resentment.
By the same token we can't assume that Bland was fatally harmed off camera just because we didn't see the whole thing. The Bland family hasn't produced the second autopsy and yet they now say they might be willing to accept a suicide if they have all the facts. That's looking to me like it could have been a suicide.
I should add that an arrest especially here in US isn't a film performance where you remember where to stand, it's often a crisis and the officer hopes not to get hurt, hit by oncoming traffic and any number of considerations they have to be aware of.
Was this racist or did the officer protect himself and other people. ( I post this because the Dubose killing has been extended to ideas about most police who shoot blacks, and the OP post related to whether such shootings occur because of race, or not.
Comments
No sorry I saw his left arm Move in the car, it also stays there although I'd question if it was trapped as such.
The question is of course whether he drew his gun to prevent him going or because his arm was in the car so he was protecting himself.
I'm still unsure how he ended up where he was when he was on the floor.
It doesn't stay there. The man is fully visible and the cops arm is not in the car at all after he goes for the ignition, he's moved slightly back. Then it's visible that he put his arm back into the car and up to the man's arms to move them from his head. After he shoots him his left hand goes to the back edge of the open window. Clear as day. Select .25 speed and freeze frame it. I'm sure he was trying to stop the car moving and he fell back as it gathered speed.
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost. ;-)
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
Link 1: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-federal-judge-orders-release-of-videos-20150714-story.html#page=1
Link 2: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/zachary-hammond-shot-police-south-carolina_55ba6d51e4b0af35367aaa16
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.
Good to see the driver had the sense (and was able!) to call him out without any crap, like being tased or shot for daring to try.
Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.
He was fired and is now claiming false dismissal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3181648/Campus-cop-charged-murdering-unarmed-black-man-demands-job-claiming-unfair-dismissal-officers-witnessed-shooting-cleared-lying-accounts.html
That will be a moot point of he's convicted.
Indeed.
FWIW, the DA who condemned Ray Tensing's conduct in shooting Samuel DuBose during a routine traffic stop was probably the polar opposite of the one who criticised Sandra Bland's response to the officer she encountered. Maybe a more common sense and less politicised justice system would better serve the rights enshrined in the Constitution and the interests of US society as a whole... ?
Any thoughts on the best way forward? Or do you think that things will eventually work themselves out without legislative change? I would be interested to hear your views on some of the other points I raise above, such as how perception of the police affects their effectiveness in dealing with communities who have long since grown to distrust them.
Absolutely - plus he was a lot more articulate and talkative than Du Bose, and I think that threw Tensing, who didn't seem to know what to say a lot of the time. He just expected his "orders" to be obeyed to the letter, like the arrogant clown he is. Also there was two of them in the car.
There's a difference between police and other professionals though. Most professionals don't face people who want to harm them and have no conscience about it. There was just another police killing a few days ago at a traffic stop. That's why officers are sometimes given the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/02/memphis-officer-fatally-shot/31013881/
The Constitution doesn't say that people can talk to officers however they want. They can disagree within reason.
I don't know what will happen going forward. There is increasing lawlessness and senseless crimes as well, so there is some polarizing going on.
http://m.wlwt.com/news/source-2-bags-of-marijuana-in-duboses-car-at-time-of-fatal-shooting/34533640
This doesn't mean he should have been shot or that Tensing wasn't foolish to stick his hand in the car.
It just shows that routine stops aren't that routine.
I understand your comparison, but armed with guns it's a whole lot more dangerous and frightening than anything's ever been here.
With belt and dash cams at least there's some hope of justice. That requirement doesn't even seem to be universal or any PO checking and being accountable for their camera capacity being full. It's a convenient get out clause if they claim they were full as we've already seen in the Sandra Bland case when absolute proof of what happened out of view was conveniently not available.. How many of them got away with it before doesn't bear thinking about. It's no surprise there's so much bitter resentment.
Indeed, but we're not discussing Mark Duggan.
Agreed - there should be no excuse for missing video evidence. We've seen that happen too often for it to be co-incidence, in this country.
By the same token we can't assume that Bland was fatally harmed off camera just because we didn't see the whole thing. The Bland family hasn't produced the second autopsy and yet they now say they might be willing to accept a suicide if they have all the facts. That's looking to me like it could have been a suicide.
I should add that an arrest especially here in US isn't a film performance where you remember where to stand, it's often a crisis and the officer hopes not to get hurt, hit by oncoming traffic and any number of considerations they have to be aware of.
http://m.chron.com/news/us/article/Psych-firm-that-screens-Baltimore-cops-under-6428170.php
http://mobile.philly.com/news/?wss=/philly/news&id=320814501&
Was this racist or did the officer protect himself and other people. ( I post this because the Dubose killing has been extended to ideas about most police who shoot blacks, and the OP post related to whether such shootings occur because of race, or not.