I'm not sure of your post here my head still hurts from my last posting
I know. I have a dreadful headache after my last post (which crossed with yours).
if I'm right in thinking the first recording doesn't work if made prior to the T minus 15 because it then goes through the routine of questioning the possible updated start times but stumbles at this hurdle as the Prog CRID is missing.
That's more or less what I'm saying in my inspired-by-your-theory theory. I explained it by surmising that, in the outside T-15 case, it searches the EPG (and fails). The evidence for this is that the scheduled recording remains at the beginning of the schedule list indicating that no instance has been found in the EPG. In the within T-15 case, it doesn't search the EPG (so doesn't fail). The evidence for this is that this seems to be the case in which a single recording is made. I don't think it need have anything to do with lack of a start signal.
I'm thinking about the issue of a single recording (I've not tried this myself) I presume this works ok. However does it actually record to the EPGs rigid timing or does it record with the flexiblity of accurate recording? I suspect not. If you applied padding it just extends the boundery of the EPG timing but without the Prog CRID the accurate record is inoperable.
I'm thinking about the issue of a single recording (I've not tried this myself) I presume this works ok. However does it actually record to the EPGs rigid timing or does it record with the flexiblity of accurate recording? I suspect not. If you applied padding it just extends the boundery of the EPG timing but without the Prog CRID the accurate record is inoperable.
Single recordings work OK. The one time I consciously checked what it did, it was exactly as per the EPG (on a Zone channel). Could be happenstance, of course.
Incidentally, I've seen a number of programmes on the EPG without any CRID information at all (at least, none that shows in the information panel when CRID test is enabled). Unless there's some hidden CRID data, the only way these can be recorded is agaisnt the EPG timing (padded or otherwise).
Programmes do not need to have Prog CRIDs, but if they are part of a series they need a Series CRID (for Series Recording).
Zone Romantica is another channel which does not have Prog CRIDs, but Series CRIDs. I've just set up two SR timers with back-to-back episodes to see if they all record...
Neither of the two SR programmes I set last night recorded. My box was also in active standby when I got in. So it does look like a bug, and also explains the non-recording of Click (which I had problems with)...
Now we know, programmes without Prog CRIDs but with Series CRID will not record if the box is put into standby outside of the 15 mins period before the start of that programme. Such timers will fail and leave the box in active standby if no other timers kick in...
Now we know, programmes without Prog CRIDs but with Series CRID will not record if the box is put into standby outside of the 15 mins period before the start of that programme. Such timers will fail and leave the box in active standby if no other timers kick in...
... programmes without Prog CRIDs but with Series CRID will not record if Series Record is selected ....
Nice to see this has turned into an interesting debate, after an initial slow start!
The point is, all of this can only be conjecture, until either someone from Humax or a Broadcaster responds. I took the BBC route of enquiry, as I initially thought it was a broadcast issue, especially when looking at the apparent inconsistencies of how CRID data is applied.
I telephoned the BBC again this afternoon, same story, information will be forwarded to the correct department. They couldn't even tell me if my initial enquiry had been actioned! Like a lot of places these days you can never speak to a person who may be in a position to know!
I would contact Humax, but my dealings with them in the past leaves much to be desired. But that's a long story. Never ever e-mail them, they never reply!
Finally, after 2 weeks, I've had a reply from the BBC. The person who telephoned acknowledge that they are not transmitting all the data and you know what, "have no plans to change the present situation", as their main priority is towards their 'main channels". He didn't even say no present plans, just no plans period! Well that got me going, I asked, if that be the case, why do you provide full series link information for programmes like 'Click' on Freeview+ but not Freesat+ and that they should be delivering an equal service to both set of viewers. I also stated that if they do not propose to maintain series link data on these programmes, they shouldn't mark them as such as it causes problems with recordings. Well that just resulted in the same response, "no plans etc." Anyway to cut a long story short, he's going to mark my enquiry as unresolved, wow!
Makes you wonder why the broadcasters' even offered the service in the first place if they are not willing to maintain it fully. I guess like most organisations these days it's percentages that count not service! Rant over, that guy really annoyed me!
Thanks Caoimhghin for the update I have to say although disappointed I'm not surprised by the BBCs response. I suspect they will resolve this issue by removing the series link and not by supplying the full data via the programme CRID thus relying on just the epg data
Thanks Caoimhghin for the update I have to say although disappointed I'm not surprised by the BBCs response. I suspect they will resolve this issue by removing the series link and not by supplying the full data via the programme CRID thus relying on just the epg data
That's the problem, he left me with the impression that they intend to do nothing, the worse outcome! From my own point of view and readers on this forum, we can easily surmount the problem by viewing the CRID information and recording programmes accordingly. Other people, without this knowledge, will probably end up blaming Humax and give a negative response, which to all intense and purposes is wrong.
That's the problem, he left me with the impression that they intend to do nothing, the worse outcome! From my own point of view and readers on this forum, we can easily surmount the problem by viewing the CRID information and recording programmes accordingly. Other people, without this knowledge, will probably end up blaming Humax and give a negative response, which to all intense and purposes is wrong.
Even with this knowledge, I still think there is an issue with the HDR.
Firstly, it is not just BBC Alba (and a couple of other minority BBC channels) that use Series CRID without Prog CRID. The Zone channels do the same, and there are others. On the face of it, it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do *.
Secondly, let us suppose that there is a specification that says that, if there is a Series CRID, there must also be a Prog CRID. I doubt it, but it is reasonable to create this as a supposition. The HDR would need exception handling for what it does should it find a series CRID without a Prog CRID. Not offering Series Record would make sense, as would alerting the user or recording each programme with that Series CRID according to EPG timings. What it presently does (offer to record the series, set up the recording in its schedule, and then record nothing) does not make a lot of sense. In this case, Humax would probably not describe it as a bug, but it would be very poor design.
* It is a pity that Alba has no plans to use Prog CRIDs, and BBC ought to be ashamed of themselves for this. However, I suspect that it is Accurate Record that they have no plans for, not Series Record. They may well believe they are already supporting Series Record. Although I may be wrong on this, it seems to me that Prog CRID is needed to support Accurate Record, Prog CRID is needed to support Series Record, and that they should work independently of each other. The HDR is perfectly capable of recording an individual programme which doesn't have a Prog CRID. It uses the EPG timing. Why shouldn't it be capable of recording every programme with the same Series CRID according to EPG timings?
There has been a lack of system/user testing and quality control with this issue, and I guess Humax should share the blame. It isn't as if it's a fault that's not easily replicated. For the box to just sit there and do nothing is not acceptable, there should be a fall back position if a program start indicator isn't received when expected. At the very least it should return the box to it's proper power saving mode and give a reason for non recording or record to the scheduled time. Better still would be for Humax to not offer a series link for this condition in the first place, but it could be that the broadcaster is just 'late' in updating the EPG, so a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. I guess Humax's argument would be that the broadcaster should supply the required information, but that doesn't help them sell boxes!
There is a relative small number of CRID conditions to check for, it's just so annoying that you end up with a 'half arsed' system. Maybe once it's more mature, with the weight of more customers coming on stream, these anomolies will be sorted!
There has been a lack of system/user testing and quality control with this issue, and I guess Humax should share the blame. It isn't as if it's a fault that's not easily replicated. For the box to just sit there and do nothing is not acceptable, there should be a fall back position if a program start indicator isn't received when expected. At the very least it should return the box to it's proper power saving mode and give a reason for non recording or record to the scheduled time. Better still would be for Humax to not offer a series link for this condition in the first place, but it could be that the broadcaster is just 'late' in updating the EPG, so a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. I guess Humax's argument would be that the broadcaster should supply the required information, but that doesn't help them sell boxes!
I think it could be even simpler than that. The way I imagine things working (which I admit to being mere speculation) is as follows.
For a programme with a Prog CRID, a programme start signal will be expected. If the broadcaster fails to send that, the recording will fail and it won't be be the PVR's fault. For a programme without a Prog CRID, the PVR will not expect a start signal and will simply record according to the timings in the EPG. The EPG will be updated periodically to take into account planned changes in the schedule and the PVR should track these changes. However, it won't pick up last minute changes due to overruns, etc, and it won't be as precise as it can be with a Prog CRID and start signal. That's what Accurate Record is about.
All programmes with a Series CRID should be recorded either (a) according to a start signal if they have a Prog CRID, or (b) according to EPG timings if they don't have a Series CRID. I.e. Series CRIDs and Prog CRIDs work independently of each other.
I once thought that something more clever was going on (and this still might be the case). That is that Prog CRIDs are also intended to ensure that the same episode is not recorded more than once. However, two things have caused me to reconsider. Firstly, the number of different channels that only use Sereis CRIDS. Secondly, every example I have examined where an episode is repeated has had a different Series CRID for the repeat. It is conceivable that Prog CRIDs may also be intended to be used as a means of indicating alternative instances whilst ensuring that repeats aren't recorded, but that need not mean they PROG CRIDs are required. Lack of a Prog CRID would simply mean record everything with the same Series CRID according to the EPG.
I would really like to see a system specification for the transmission data, both from a broadcaster and PVR manufacturer point of view, just so both can be compared! But as that is unlikely, anything we cam surmise is pure speculation as to what was the original intention with the CRIDs.
As I said before, it's a pity that Humax do not comment on this. I know they frequent this forum!
Comments
I know. I have a dreadful headache after my last post (which crossed with yours).
That's more or less what I'm saying in my inspired-by-your-theory theory. I explained it by surmising that, in the outside T-15 case, it searches the EPG (and fails). The evidence for this is that the scheduled recording remains at the beginning of the schedule list indicating that no instance has been found in the EPG. In the within T-15 case, it doesn't search the EPG (so doesn't fail). The evidence for this is that this seems to be the case in which a single recording is made. I don't think it need have anything to do with lack of a start signal.
Single recordings work OK. The one time I consciously checked what it did, it was exactly as per the EPG (on a Zone channel). Could be happenstance, of course.
Incidentally, I've seen a number of programmes on the EPG without any CRID information at all (at least, none that shows in the information panel when CRID test is enabled). Unless there's some hidden CRID data, the only way these can be recorded is agaisnt the EPG timing (padded or otherwise).
Neither of the two SR programmes I set last night recorded. My box was also in active standby when I got in. So it does look like a bug, and also explains the non-recording of Click (which I had problems with)...
Now we know, programmes without Prog CRIDs but with Series CRID will not record if the box is put into standby outside of the 15 mins period before the start of that programme. Such timers will fail and leave the box in active standby if no other timers kick in...
... programmes without Prog CRIDs but with Series CRID will not record if Series Record is selected ....
The point is, all of this can only be conjecture, until either someone from Humax or a Broadcaster responds. I took the BBC route of enquiry, as I initially thought it was a broadcast issue, especially when looking at the apparent inconsistencies of how CRID data is applied.
I telephoned the BBC again this afternoon, same story, information will be forwarded to the correct department. They couldn't even tell me if my initial enquiry had been actioned! Like a lot of places these days you can never speak to a person who may be in a position to know!
I would contact Humax, but my dealings with them in the past leaves much to be desired. But that's a long story. Never ever e-mail them, they never reply!
Makes you wonder why the broadcasters' even offered the service in the first place if they are not willing to maintain it fully. I guess like most organisations these days it's percentages that count not service! Rant over, that guy really annoyed me!
Even with this knowledge, I still think there is an issue with the HDR.
Firstly, it is not just BBC Alba (and a couple of other minority BBC channels) that use Series CRID without Prog CRID. The Zone channels do the same, and there are others. On the face of it, it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do *.
Secondly, let us suppose that there is a specification that says that, if there is a Series CRID, there must also be a Prog CRID. I doubt it, but it is reasonable to create this as a supposition. The HDR would need exception handling for what it does should it find a series CRID without a Prog CRID. Not offering Series Record would make sense, as would alerting the user or recording each programme with that Series CRID according to EPG timings. What it presently does (offer to record the series, set up the recording in its schedule, and then record nothing) does not make a lot of sense. In this case, Humax would probably not describe it as a bug, but it would be very poor design.
* It is a pity that Alba has no plans to use Prog CRIDs, and BBC ought to be ashamed of themselves for this. However, I suspect that it is Accurate Record that they have no plans for, not Series Record. They may well believe they are already supporting Series Record. Although I may be wrong on this, it seems to me that Prog CRID is needed to support Accurate Record, Prog CRID is needed to support Series Record, and that they should work independently of each other. The HDR is perfectly capable of recording an individual programme which doesn't have a Prog CRID. It uses the EPG timing. Why shouldn't it be capable of recording every programme with the same Series CRID according to EPG timings?
Everything you say is spot on.
There has been a lack of system/user testing and quality control with this issue, and I guess Humax should share the blame. It isn't as if it's a fault that's not easily replicated. For the box to just sit there and do nothing is not acceptable, there should be a fall back position if a program start indicator isn't received when expected. At the very least it should return the box to it's proper power saving mode and give a reason for non recording or record to the scheduled time. Better still would be for Humax to not offer a series link for this condition in the first place, but it could be that the broadcaster is just 'late' in updating the EPG, so a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. I guess Humax's argument would be that the broadcaster should supply the required information, but that doesn't help them sell boxes!
There is a relative small number of CRID conditions to check for, it's just so annoying that you end up with a 'half arsed' system. Maybe once it's more mature, with the weight of more customers coming on stream, these anomolies will be sorted!
I think it could be even simpler than that. The way I imagine things working (which I admit to being mere speculation) is as follows.
For a programme with a Prog CRID, a programme start signal will be expected. If the broadcaster fails to send that, the recording will fail and it won't be be the PVR's fault. For a programme without a Prog CRID, the PVR will not expect a start signal and will simply record according to the timings in the EPG. The EPG will be updated periodically to take into account planned changes in the schedule and the PVR should track these changes. However, it won't pick up last minute changes due to overruns, etc, and it won't be as precise as it can be with a Prog CRID and start signal. That's what Accurate Record is about.
All programmes with a Series CRID should be recorded either (a) according to a start signal if they have a Prog CRID, or (b) according to EPG timings if they don't have a Series CRID. I.e. Series CRIDs and Prog CRIDs work independently of each other.
I once thought that something more clever was going on (and this still might be the case). That is that Prog CRIDs are also intended to ensure that the same episode is not recorded more than once. However, two things have caused me to reconsider. Firstly, the number of different channels that only use Sereis CRIDS. Secondly, every example I have examined where an episode is repeated has had a different Series CRID for the repeat. It is conceivable that Prog CRIDs may also be intended to be used as a means of indicating alternative instances whilst ensuring that repeats aren't recorded, but that need not mean they PROG CRIDs are required. Lack of a Prog CRID would simply mean record everything with the same Series CRID according to the EPG.
As I said before, it's a pity that Humax do not comment on this. I know they frequent this forum!