OP - As far as UKIP are concerned I can't see myself as ever voting for them as I generally inhabit a different part of the political spectrum. That being said my ears tend to shut down when their opponents start with their incessant smear campaigns. I'm not interested in hearing why I shouldn't vote for the other guy because he's the devil incarnate, I want to hear why I should vote for "you".
At the moment I think parties like UKIP and the SNP are playing an important role in UK politics by giving the arrogant, insular parasites that make up the gruesome twosome a good solid kick in their complacency, My hope is they will finally shatter the myth that a vote outside the big two is wasted and create enough disruption to allow other small parties to step up to the plate and force meaningful democratic reform (and not just another stitch up to suit Lab/Con).
A varied politics is a healthy politics IMO and the more parties that join the fray the better and if that includes parties on the far right and left then so be it. A silenced voice is a resentful voice and far more dangerous for it.
Finally from more of a probable lefty point of view that understands a little bit of freedom and the current status quo.
I completely agree, Lots of voices and more individuality, thinking for ones self and voting more on principle than party lines should be encouraged in parliament.
Finally from more of a probable lefty point of view that understands a little bit of freedom and the current status quo.
I completely agree, Lots of voices and more individuality, thinking for ones self and voting more on principle than party lines should be encouraged in parliament.
Absolutely. So sad when people feel so divorced from the political process they cannot even be bothered to vote anymore. That just encourages the malaise to continue. If you don't like the main stream party's the vote for UKIP, Greens, other smaller party because maybe, just maybe, if enough people do we might see some change.
I am not worried by UKIP at all and support them. If you don't like the policies you don't have to vote for them.
You can also vote for them if you don't care what their policies are,
In fact you have no choice at the moment as they have no policies even pulling out of the EU isn't really a policy as such, it's just a vague idea, there is no flesh on the bone so to speak,
"How will it be done Nige"? erm,.... dunno but we are going to do it,
How long would it take Nige? erm..... dunno but we are going to do it,
How much will it cost the tax payers to sort it out Nige? erm,... dunno but we are going to do it,
What will happen to the people from EU countries who already live here Nige? erm.... oh go away and stop picking on us,
What about the roughly 2 million Brits (when children etc are factored in) who live in the EU Nige?
WILL YOU STOP CALLING US RACISTS you leftie stooge, you are only asking all these damned questions because you are scared of how popular we are, and that's without any policies, look at Miliband and Cameron and how badly they are doing and that's WITH polices, obviously having polices puts people off voting for you,
I've often found that it's not that they're free of prejudice, just that they only ever recognise it in others.
If there are any it should be easy enough to find the evidence, After all the links between the equally violent UAF and Labour are pretty well documented.
So, the 'logic' would seem to be that if Ukip do have links with or the support of the EDL, (actually there is no "if" about it, they DO have the support of the EDL)
then that's OK because Labour apparently condone the violence used by some supporters of the UAF?
IF this support from Labour or links from Labour to the "violent UAF" are, as you say, "well documented" then you will have no problem providing us with some evidence of the Labour parties support for violent behaviour, because that's what it appears you are saying.
I have provided plenty of evidence of the support for Ukip from the EDL and from the BNP splinter group Britain first, (a lovely bunch of chaps) as well as both Farage and Hamilton 'boasting' and welcoming the fact that over a third of the BNP vote has gone over to Ukip, I can't for the life of me imagine what BNP voters find so attractive in Ukip,
Strange idea of a "Labour cover up" you have there,
The systematic grooming of boys and girls remains a “real and ongoing problem”, a year after Greater Manchester police (GMP) was forced to admit it had failed abuse victims in Rochdale, said Ann Coffey, a former social worker who is now the Labour MP for Stockport. “My observations will make painful reading for those who hoped that Rochdale was an isolated case,” she writes in a significant report.
Perhaps it's that strange kind of "Labour cover up" the type in which it's a Labour MP who is raising awareness of it?
As much as it sticks in my throat to defend Tories, how is this a "cover up" when it is under investigation and May is trying to get an inquiry under way? it may well have been covered up, but is it not a Tory minister who has ordered the inquiry?
She has denied all knowledge of the claims against her. She says she has no recollection of any notes detailing child abuse claims that were written or destroyed by a staff member, or of being approached by Martin Digan, a former social worker at Knowl View.
Now call me old fashioned if ya like but I long for those good old days when a person was innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, by all means look into it, and I believe the police have been informed, but there does seem to be a lot of "alleged's" and "he said she said he said's" flying around, in that report,
I can understand people wishing to vote Green I can understand people wishing to vote SNP after all those two parties have a raft of policies which many people might find attractive and I respect their right to vote for whoever the hell they wish, after all this is a democracy,
I even respect the rights of people to vote Ukip if voting for a party with no policies other than some half arsed half thought through promise to leave the EU is good enough in their mind to hand the running of the country over to them,
yip, I respect their right to vote for them, but understanding why..... that's a different matter entirely.
Absolutely. So sad when people feel so divorced from the political process they cannot even be bothered to vote anymore. That just encourages the malaise to continue. If you don't like the main stream party's the vote for UKIP, Greens, other smaller party because maybe, just maybe, if enough people do we might see some change.
Assumes change means anything at all positive. Voting Green achieves nothing other than to make a Labour government, and green policies less likely. Voting UKIP ,achieves nothing other than to make a Conservative government and a EU referendum less likely.
There's nothing in that that produces a more democratic outcome. If a Labour government moved towards Green policies, to gain Green support in parliament, it would just move further from the voters who voted UKIP/Conservative, and some who voted labour. More votes and power for UKIP, means less of what they want for Green, Liberal, Labour, and some Tory voters.
Fragmentation of the vote doesn't help anything much . It means more disapointed voters- who believed in the impossible - thats rejected by the majority. It means coalitions are more likely - where everyone's manifestos are torn up. It means people voting tactically, and getting it wrong, or getting the opposite policies to those they wanted - by backing the parties that never win seats.
In the current environment, its also pretty dangerous. A Labour government refusing half the population wanting one, an EU referendum - with a majority based on 35% of the votes - would have real problems. Things would be worse if Labour was sustained by the SNP, and that coalition over-ruled the majority of English voters - on issues like the EU, and fair votes for the English. There was rather a lot of trouble the last time the English, and Welsh, found themselves ruled by Scots with widely different ideas, and, ironically, its East Anglia that would again provide much of the opposition and support for the opposite case.
Surely the tweets of UKIP parish council candidates are far more serious than those cases?!:D Odd how it's all gone quiet on these issues in the media - almost like they don't want to dig too deep and discover things that might harm their mates.
So, the 'logic' would seem to be that if Ukip do have links with or the support of the EDL, (actually there is no "if" about it, they DO have the support of the EDL)
then that's OK because Labour apparently condone the violence used by some supporters of the UAF? IF this support from Labour or links from Labour to the "violent UAF" are, as you say, "well documented" then you will have no problem providing us with some evidence of the Labour parties support for violent behaviour, because that's what it appears you are saying.
I have provided plenty of evidence of the support for Ukip from the EDL and from the BNP splinter group Britain first, (a lovely bunch of chaps) as well as both Farage and Hamilton 'boasting' and welcoming the fact that over a third of the BNP vote has gone over to Ukip, I can't for the life of me imagine what BNP voters find so attractive in Ukip,
No member of EDL- past or present - is allowed to join UKIP - it's a fundamental condition of membership.
I thought everyone knew UAF are funded by UNITE and other unions and has support from high profile Labour MPs such as Peter Hain (who is UAF's Parliamentary Officer) and Dianne Abbott. http://uaf.org.uk/about/our-officers/
As it is under FPTP the two biggest parties (esp. Tories) may feel the need to accomodate UKIP policies just to avoid losing support and to get back into power; many other important issues will be pushed aside.
I doubt other issues will be pushed aside. The ability of a government to handle more than one issue at a time is not affected by the political system. Election-swaying issues are just as election-swayingy and distracting under PR as they are under FPTP.
If only we had proper democratic way to choose a government.
Take it from me, the 'proper democratic way' you envisage simply changes the nature of the problems the electorate has to endure. It doesn't fix anything. It doesn't make politicians less corrupt. It doesn't whiten your teeth. It makes no substantial difference what-so-ever.
It gives more people a representative in Parliament. It doesn't stop that representative from situating his or her backside firmly in the trough and wallowing in it at our expense for as long as s/he can get away with it.
So, the 'logic' would seem to be that if Ukip do have links with or the support of the EDL, (actually there is no "if" about it, they DO have the support of the EDL) then that's OK because Labour apparently condone the violence used by some supporters of the UAF?
Er no, the statement was quite straight forward, If there are links between the two then evidence should be quite easy to provide, which I notice you haven't managed to do. Care to show where I stated violence was acceptable from either side?
IF this support from Labour or links from Labour to the "violent UAF" are, as you say, "well documented" then you will have no problem providing us with some evidence of the Labour parties support for violent behaviour, because that's what it appears you are saying.
Others have done that but then you only see what you want to see.
I have provided plenty of evidence of the support for Ukip from the EDL and from the BNP splinter group Britain first, (a lovely bunch of chaps) as well as both Farage and Hamilton 'boasting' and welcoming the fact that over a third of the BNP vote has gone over to Ukip, I can't for the life of me imagine what BNP voters find so attractive in Ukip,
Maybe you should try asking them instead of throwing up constant straw men.
You can also vote for them if you don't care what their policies are,
In fact you have no choice at the moment as they have no policies even pulling out of the EU isn't really a policy as such, it's just a vague idea, there is no flesh on the bone so to speak,
"How will it be done Nige"? erm,.... dunno but we are going to do it,
How long would it take Nige? erm..... dunno but we are going to do it,
How much will it cost the tax payers to sort it out Nige? erm,... dunno but we are going to do it,
What will happen to the people from EU countries who already live here Nige? erm.... oh go away and stop picking on us,
What about the roughly 2 million Brits (when children etc are factored in) who live in the EU Nige?
WILL YOU STOP CALLING US RACISTS you leftie stooge, you are only asking all these damned questions because you are scared of how popular we are, and that's without any policies, look at Miliband and Cameron and how badly they are doing and that's WITH polices, obviously having polices puts people off voting for you,
policies? we don't need no stinking policies.
;-)
and that is basically Ukip,
UKIP have no policies you say? why don't you stop being so bloody ignorant and look at their website there is a mini manifesto on there. http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people
Assumes change means anything at all positive. Voting Green achieves nothing other than to make a Labour government, and green policies less likely. Voting UKIP ,achieves nothing other than to make a Conservative government and a EU referendum less likely.
Shaking up the major parties achieves a lot. It was once thought that voting Lib Dem achieved nothing, yet here they are in government.
Fragmentation of the vote doesn't help anything much . It means more disapointed voters- who believed in the impossible - thats rejected by the majority. It means coalitions are more likely - where everyone's manifestos are torn up..
Manifestos are not torn up - they are negotiated over. Nothing wrong with coalitions if a single party can't get a majority.
It means people voting tactically, and getting it wrong, or getting the opposite policies to those they wanted - by backing the parties that never win seats.
Voting tactically is old-style voting. If instead of doing that, more people back "the parties that never win seats", those parties will actually win seats! Just look at Ukip and the Greens for an illustration of that.
oh dear and he's one of Labours rising stars apparently. Did he learn nothing from the last Euro Elections, that crying racist at UKIP doesn't work
Oh dear Chukka, saw him on ITV's The Agenda last night. The smoothest blandest career politician I have ever heard, all style but absolutely no substance.
The Tory party must hope that if Labour decide to get rid of Miliband they choose this pompous suited airhead.
- UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.
What happens when the they do? Will UKIP re-introduce fees for museums? How does UKIP propose to support the Arts and sport?
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students..
Can't see them applying. It'll be too expensive for them. Holland and Germany have done away with student fees. Why can't Britain?
UK students can now travel to those countries and study for free.
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students..
Goes without saying really if we won't be in the EU any more.
Do they want British students to be stuck in the UK? Once out of the EU they'll have to pay a fortune if they want to study in Europe. Sounds a bit daft.
Do they want British students to be stuck in the UK? Once out of the EU they'll have to pay a fortune if they want to study in Europe. Sounds a bit daft.
Yes...they are liable to pick up dangerous ideas from foreign places/people/academics...who by definition are all PC, Guardian reading, feminist, sandal wearing, eco mentalist socialists.
For the same reason overseas holidays will be taxed to the hilt so we can all stay home to play bingo, drink warm beer and sit on deckchairs in a variety of special UKIP themed seaside resorts like Clacton.
Oh and we'll be driving there in Morris Minors ;-)
- UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.
What happens when the they do? Will UKIP re-introduce fees for museums? How does UKIP propose to support the Arts and sport?
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students..
Can't see them applying. It'll be too expensive for them. Holland and Germany have done away with student fees. Why can't Britain? UK students can now travel to those countries and study for free.
Yes...they are liable to pick up dangerous ideas from foreign places/people/academics...who by definition are all PC, Guardian reading, feminist, sandal wearing, eco mentalist socialists.
For the same reason overseas holidays will be taxed to the hilt so we can all stay home to play bingo, drink warm beer and sit on deckchairs in a variety of special UKIP themed seaside resorts like Clacton.
Oh and we'll be driving there in Morris Minors ;-)
I see, so under UKIP, the UK will become a cross between a retiring home and The Prisoner - " Come in number 6 ..."
Comments
Finally from more of a probable lefty point of view that understands a little bit of freedom and the current status quo.
I completely agree, Lots of voices and more individuality, thinking for ones self and voting more on principle than party lines should be encouraged in parliament.
Absolutely. So sad when people feel so divorced from the political process they cannot even be bothered to vote anymore. That just encourages the malaise to continue. If you don't like the main stream party's the vote for UKIP, Greens, other smaller party because maybe, just maybe, if enough people do we might see some change.
You can also vote for them if you don't care what their policies are,
In fact you have no choice at the moment as they have no policies even pulling out of the EU isn't really a policy as such, it's just a vague idea, there is no flesh on the bone so to speak,
"How will it be done Nige"? erm,.... dunno but we are going to do it,
How long would it take Nige? erm..... dunno but we are going to do it,
How much will it cost the tax payers to sort it out Nige? erm,... dunno but we are going to do it,
What will happen to the people from EU countries who already live here Nige? erm.... oh go away and stop picking on us,
What about the roughly 2 million Brits (when children etc are factored in) who live in the EU Nige?
WILL YOU STOP CALLING US RACISTS you leftie stooge, you are only asking all these damned questions because you are scared of how popular we are, and that's without any policies, look at Miliband and Cameron and how badly they are doing and that's WITH polices, obviously having polices puts people off voting for you,
policies? we don't need no stinking policies.
;-)
and that is basically Ukip,
I'm worried about Labour's cover up of this scandal http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/30/child-sexual-exploitation-norm-greater-manchester-ann-coffey-report, the Conservatives' cover up of this scandal http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mps-vips-child-abuse-ring-4551934 and the Liberal Democrats' cover up of this scandal http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/08/senior-lib-dem-liz-lynne-accused-destroy-document-cyril-smith-abuse-claims. When combined with the MPs' expenses scandal, is it any wonder that voters are turning to the SNP, Greens and UKIP.
So, the 'logic' would seem to be that if Ukip do have links with or the support of the EDL, (actually there is no "if" about it, they DO have the support of the EDL)
then that's OK because Labour apparently condone the violence used by some supporters of the UAF?
IF this support from Labour or links from Labour to the "violent UAF" are, as you say, "well documented" then you will have no problem providing us with some evidence of the Labour parties support for violent behaviour, because that's what it appears you are saying.
I have provided plenty of evidence of the support for Ukip from the EDL and from the BNP splinter group Britain first, (a lovely bunch of chaps) as well as both Farage and Hamilton 'boasting' and welcoming the fact that over a third of the BNP vote has gone over to Ukip, I can't for the life of me imagine what BNP voters find so attractive in Ukip,
Strange idea of a "Labour cover up" you have there,
Perhaps it's that strange kind of "Labour cover up" the type in which it's a Labour MP who is raising awareness of it?
As much as it sticks in my throat to defend Tories, how is this a "cover up" when it is under investigation and May is trying to get an inquiry under way? it may well have been covered up, but is it not a Tory minister who has ordered the inquiry?
except of course you omit this part.
Now call me old fashioned if ya like but I long for those good old days when a person was innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, by all means look into it, and I believe the police have been informed, but there does seem to be a lot of "alleged's" and "he said she said he said's" flying around, in that report,
I can understand people wishing to vote Green I can understand people wishing to vote SNP after all those two parties have a raft of policies which many people might find attractive and I respect their right to vote for whoever the hell they wish, after all this is a democracy,
I even respect the rights of people to vote Ukip if voting for a party with no policies other than some half arsed half thought through promise to leave the EU is good enough in their mind to hand the running of the country over to them,
yip, I respect their right to vote for them, but understanding why..... that's a different matter entirely.
Assumes change means anything at all positive. Voting Green achieves nothing other than to make a Labour government, and green policies less likely. Voting UKIP ,achieves nothing other than to make a Conservative government and a EU referendum less likely.
There's nothing in that that produces a more democratic outcome. If a Labour government moved towards Green policies, to gain Green support in parliament, it would just move further from the voters who voted UKIP/Conservative, and some who voted labour. More votes and power for UKIP, means less of what they want for Green, Liberal, Labour, and some Tory voters.
Fragmentation of the vote doesn't help anything much . It means more disapointed voters- who believed in the impossible - thats rejected by the majority. It means coalitions are more likely - where everyone's manifestos are torn up. It means people voting tactically, and getting it wrong, or getting the opposite policies to those they wanted - by backing the parties that never win seats.
In the current environment, its also pretty dangerous. A Labour government refusing half the population wanting one, an EU referendum - with a majority based on 35% of the votes - would have real problems. Things would be worse if Labour was sustained by the SNP, and that coalition over-ruled the majority of English voters - on issues like the EU, and fair votes for the English. There was rather a lot of trouble the last time the English, and Welsh, found themselves ruled by Scots with widely different ideas, and, ironically, its East Anglia that would again provide much of the opposition and support for the opposite case.
Surely the tweets of UKIP parish council candidates are far more serious than those cases?!:D Odd how it's all gone quiet on these issues in the media - almost like they don't want to dig too deep and discover things that might harm their mates.
No member of EDL- past or present - is allowed to join UKIP - it's a fundamental condition of membership.
I thought everyone knew UAF are funded by UNITE and other unions and has support from high profile Labour MPs such as Peter Hain (who is UAF's Parliamentary Officer) and Dianne Abbott. http://uaf.org.uk/about/our-officers/
And yes, evidence of their violence is well documented. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ4kwYuZKTw
And their "Nasty Little Nigel" demo where Nigel Farage was hit over the head with a placard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pw7EwceF8A
I come from a country with 'proper' PR, having ditched the 'Westminster' system in the 1990s.
Yes, probably.
I doubt other issues will be pushed aside. The ability of a government to handle more than one issue at a time is not affected by the political system. Election-swaying issues are just as election-swayingy and distracting under PR as they are under FPTP.
Take it from me, the 'proper democratic way' you envisage simply changes the nature of the problems the electorate has to endure. It doesn't fix anything. It doesn't make politicians less corrupt. It doesn't whiten your teeth. It makes no substantial difference what-so-ever.
It gives more people a representative in Parliament. It doesn't stop that representative from situating his or her backside firmly in the trough and wallowing in it at our expense for as long as s/he can get away with it.
What did you do with the rest of your straw OHG?
Er no, the statement was quite straight forward, If there are links between the two then evidence should be quite easy to provide, which I notice you haven't managed to do. Care to show where I stated violence was acceptable from either side?
Others have done that but then you only see what you want to see.
Maybe you should try asking them instead of throwing up constant straw men.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11203462/Chuka-Umunna-We-must-stand-up-to-Ukip-and-confront-racism-in-politics.html
Wonder if he finds vince cable a racist ! For choosing one race over another.
UKIP have no policies you say? why don't you stop being so bloody ignorant and look at their website there is a mini manifesto on there. http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people
oh dear and he's one of Labours rising stars apparently.
Manifestos are not torn up - they are negotiated over. Nothing wrong with coalitions if a single party can't get a majority.
Voting tactically is old-style voting. If instead of doing that, more people back "the parties that never win seats", those parties will actually win seats! Just look at Ukip and the Greens for an illustration of that.
Oh dear Chukka, saw him on ITV's The Agenda last night. The smoothest blandest career politician I have ever heard, all style but absolutely no substance.
The Tory party must hope that if Labour decide to get rid of Miliband they choose this pompous suited airhead.
What happens when the they do? Will UKIP re-introduce fees for museums? How does UKIP propose to support the Arts and sport?
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students..
Can't see them applying. It'll be too expensive for them. Holland and Germany have done away with student fees. Why can't Britain?
UK students can now travel to those countries and study for free.
I don't think UKIP has thought this out properly.
Re- introducing smoking in pubs. Why?
Sounds as though they don't want to!
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students..
Goes without saying really if we won't be in the EU any more.
Do they want British students to be stuck in the UK? Once out of the EU they'll have to pay a fortune if they want to study in Europe. Sounds a bit daft.
Yes...they are liable to pick up dangerous ideas from foreign places/people/academics...who by definition are all PC, Guardian reading, feminist, sandal wearing, eco mentalist socialists.
For the same reason overseas holidays will be taxed to the hilt so we can all stay home to play bingo, drink warm beer and sit on deckchairs in a variety of special UKIP themed seaside resorts like Clacton.
Oh and we'll be driving there in Morris Minors ;-)
Assuming they can read write and speak German.
I see, so under UKIP, the UK will become a cross between a retiring home and The Prisoner - " Come in number 6 ..."