S5-E1: the newborn baby is crying. Louisa says, "No, no, sorry Martin, if someone cries you give them a cuddle." She leaps from the bed and picks up the baby, who calms down almost immediately. Martin glowers from the bed.
That is why Louisa is so important to Martin: she is there to cuddle him, for this is a man who has cried out, silently, his whole life.
S5-E1: the newborn baby is crying. Louisa says, "No, no, sorry Martin, if someone cries you give them a cuddle." She leaps from the bed and picks up the baby, who calms down almost immediately. Martin glowers from the bed.
That is why Louisa is so important to Martin: she is there to cuddle him, for this is a man who has cried out, silently, his whole life.
So, when is she going to start? Other than admiring him for his morality - she wasn't able to find any other descriptors - just "he's Martin". In all other ways it seems that the LG character just points out what is missing rather than what is there.
Someone earlier pointed out that other than in Erotomania when she comes to the surgery with the hangover cure, she never tells him she loves him. And even in that episode her purpose was to seduce him. The "I do too" comment came after he had professed his love.
It is just tough love for Martin all the way round - his parents were vile, Joan was more apt to admonish him for his behavior, Ruth is certainly no warm fuzzy, and Louisa comes and goes.
So sugery was the thing that he loved and it loved him back until that fateful day. So now he has something new to love - JH, and if he goes away to London - then JH becomes Louisa's / Portwenn's son and Martin runs the risk of becoming a visitor in the life of the one person who can truly save him
Originally Posted by Conniej View Post
A lady on FB ran into him at the local co-op. He made a fuss over her dog. Here's her latest post.
'Hi yes the co-op is a grocery store, and he was immaculately dressed. Looking extremely thin and yes ladies, he sounded just as he does on TV. I called out "Mr Clunes and he looked up and said hi. I walked my dog over to his very nice BMW and he was lovely to my cocker spaniel Willow who reminded him of his Mary. He asked if we were having a lovely time and I said I expect he was busy working. Can't believe that I said to him my children had just pranked me by saying the dog had pooped in the trunk. Gosh the things you say when you are star struck. Mind you the children had really said that. I'm sure he went home and said he met a really cute dog with a strange lady !!! I thanked him fir his time and he said no problem and off we all drove. Minus photo. Argggh...'
Originally Posted by NewPark View Post
This is so funny and sweet. If I could even speak at all in that situation, I'm sure I would blurt out something just as inappropriate.
Where do you think she met him and his BMW? In Beaminster or Port Isaac.
She said it was Port Isaac. He's probably happy to be driving again!
Okay, this is saaddd, but it made my day! The Co-op grocery store in PI is right next to the B&B I stayed in there. It is also the same chain where MC shops in Beaminster, I found when visiting there. So .... MC and I have now pushed open the same two doors, stepped over the same two thresholds, potentially may have put our hands on the same two items,...... sigh.....
I'm on pain meds right now for a nerve injury I've caused meself, so am reading but not putting thoughts together so well, but the latest discussion started by Last Romantic over the last few pages has been fascinating. A great distraction for me. Keep up the good work.
And hello, Adelie. I'd been wondering about you, too. Still got the Pusser's cups handy, if you need a break.
So, when is she going to start? Other than admiring him for his morality - she wasn't able to find any other descriptors - just "he's Martin". In all other ways it seems that the LG character just points out what is missing rather than what is there.
Someone earlier pointed out that other than in Erotomania when she comes to the surgery with the hangover cure, she never tells him she loves him. And even in that episode her purpose was to seduce him. The "I do too" comment came after he had professed his love.
It is just tough love for Martin all the way round - his parents were vile, Joan was more apt to admonish him for his behavior, Ruth is certainly no warm fuzzy, and Louisa comes and goes.
So sugery was the thing that he loved and it loved him back until that fateful day. So now he has something new to love - JH, and if he goes away to London - then JH becomes Louisa's / Portwenn's son and Martin runs the risk of becoming a visitor in the life of the one person who can truly save him
I think someone recently pointed out that DM and LG were tied in the "I love you" department right up until the castle, where DM pulled ahead. She told him she loved him on the porch in Erotomania and again while standing there in her wedding dress in his living room ("It said that I love you, and I do...", or something close to that) at the end of S3. So, yes, now she needs to catch up.
You're right that the real love story right now for DM is JH. After all of that protesting that Louisa doesn't want him involved and he wouldn't be very good at all that, once the baby actually arrived, I think DM fell head over heels. As he said, "It's different now that he's here." I'm so looking forward to more scenes with DM and JH in S6.
They're running new public service ads on TV here reminding new parents not to put the baby in bed with them due to the dangers of rolling onto the baby or heavy adult bed covers and pillows hindering the baby's breathing.
So, of course, every time I see it, I think of Martin, Louisa, and brand new JH. Louisa's defense, that she read it in a book, and, "They have babies in America," doesn't exactly fly.
I think someone recently pointed out that DM and LG were tied in the "I love you" department right up until the castle, where DM pulled ahead. She told him she loved him on the porch in Erotomania and again while standing there in her wedding dress in his living room ("It said that I love you, and I do...", or something close to that) at the end of S3. So, yes, now she needs to catch up.
You're right that the real love story right now for DM is JH. After all of that protesting that Louisa doesn't want him involved and he wouldn't be very good at all that, once the baby actually arrived, I think DM fell head over heels. As he said, "It's different now that he's here." I'm so looking forward to more scenes with DM and JH in S6.
Quoting myself because I think I'm wrong. I think now that Martin said it at the castle, they're tied. Previously, LG was one up on him. On the porch the morning after the wine/sleeping with dog evening. In the living room when calling off the wedding.
Okay, this is saaddd, but it made my day! The Co-op grocery store in PI is right next to the B&B I stayed in there. It is also the same chain where MC shops in Beaminster, I found when visiting there. So .... MC and I have now pushed open the same two doors, stepped over the same two thresholds, potentially may have put our hands on the same two items,...... sigh.....
I'm on pain meds right now for a nerve injury I've caused meself, so am reading but not putting thoughts together so well, but the latest discussion started by Last Romantic over the last few pages has been fascinating. A great distraction for me. Keep up the good work.
And hello, Adelie. I'd been wondering about you, too. Still got the Pusser's cups handy, if you need a break.
Good morning (oops, afternoon) SusieSagitarius!
So sorry to hear of your injury--if only you could make an appointment with Doc Martin! I'll bet the pain would vanish in an instant. I'd say just just make the appointment and you'll arrive there in your imagination. Just think of the senario: "Liedown and unbutton your blouse!" etc., etc., Later when you are feeling a bit better, you can tell us how it went!
I am working on a piece right now for a Memoir course. It's fascinating that the essence of Doc Martin somehow infuses itself into my thoughts as I write. It is almost as though it works its magic unbidden. (Reminds me of the quote: "Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit."--"Bidden or not bidden, God is present.") And here's a parallel from Jack Zipes's When Dreams Came True slightly paraphrased: The ultimate paradox of the literary fairy tale is that it wants to mark reality without leaving a trace of how it creates the wonderous effects. I would say that this is why Doc Martin is so incredible and something of the source of the discussion here. It simply cannot be distilled or boiled down!
By the way, I love Oregon and was there many years ago with the family. We fell in love with Cannon Beach. Just came to mind that the Oregan coast is Doc Martinesque. I've never been to Cornwall, so I wouldn't and perhaps shouldn't compare the two. What do you think?
Very interesting point dmbesotted. IF the original vision was a journey of DM, of which the attraction to Louisa was just one element and was not intended to take center stage -- then it runs smack up against another stated vision of MC;s -- that DM never be seen to be changed, or :"healed" in any way. But you can't have both, because if DM never learns anything and the love story stays more or less peripheral and never goes anywhere, then you have stasis, dependent on the medical crisis or oddball local of the week.
I think it was probably the fan response that led to the love story becoming more central, to a degree that wasn't initially anticipated, and now you have a situation where DM doesn't change or soften much (except in the last few minutes of a season) and the love story gets ever more central and fraught. So yes, I think it may have become a bit unbalanced in straying from the original vision of DM on some kind of journey (if that was what was intended). But I agree, now we take it for what it is, and enjoy the wonderful writing, acting, production, etc. and hope and trust that S6 (and S7) will have just as much to offer as S1-5.
For MC to make a statement that DM won't be healed or changed in any way implies a creative stagnation which I'm glad has not come to pass. It is common for a TV show, even very long-lived ones, on TV to showcase a main character over time who did not change at all, even given all the episodes and events they went through.
But, even though I liked many of those shows, definitely, for the shows that I really fell in love with, the main characters were more complex, had more intense characters, and did change over time, did show vulnerabilities and such. DM, of course, fits that bill and without offering us hope for DM's growth and healing over the seasons I feel the show could have gotten quite stale. For him to be the focus, and for him to be so problematic, allowing him to grow and change a little bit, spoonfeeding us, two feet forward and one foot back, still has made me so much more a fan of the show than I might have been otherwise. Sure, the writing is generally superb, the humor funny, the scenery beautiful, but if it was only that, I may indeed have left long ago.
That DM is so deeply injured, and that we learn about that, and see him struggling, off and on, to realize that, to change, to improve, to grow, to love, is the key for me with the show. For MC to have even once thought that was not a vitally important aspect of the show to develop surprises me. I'm very happy that the attitude of the writers, directors, producers changed on that accord and we have been shown our damaged hero has slowly, kicking and screaming, walked a path of healing while maintaining the grumpiness I also love.
Quoting myself because I think I'm wrong. I think now that Martin said it at the castle, they're tied. Previously, LG was one up on him. On the porch the morning after the wine/sleeping with dog evening. In the living room when calling off the wedding.
For DM, just when he was drunk, right?
I would also like to add that Doc was just about to add "I will always..... when Penhale interrupts so he's improving by leaps and bounds.
S5-E1: the newborn baby is crying. Louisa says, "No, no, sorry Martin, if someone cries you give them a cuddle." She leaps from the bed and picks up the baby, who calms down almost immediately. Martin glowers from the bed.
That is why Louisa is so important to Martin: she is there to cuddle him, for this is a man who has cried out, silently, his whole life.
Such an achingly poignant description of Martin--I was close to tears when I read it...
Very interesting point dmbesotted. IF the original vision was a journey of DM, of which the attraction to Louisa was just one element and was not intended to take center stage -- then it runs smack up against another stated vision of MC;s -- that DM never be seen to be changed, or :"healed" in any way. But you can't have both, because if DM never learns anything and the love story stays more or less peripheral and never goes anywhere, then you have stasis, dependent on the medical crisis or oddball local of the week.
I think it was probably the fan response that led to the love story becoming more central, to a degree that wasn't initially anticipated, and now you have a situation where DM doesn't change or soften much (except in the last few minutes of a season) and the love story gets ever more central and fraught. So yes, I think it may have become a bit unbalanced in straying from the original vision of DM on some kind of journey (if that was what was intended). But I agree, now we take it for what it is, and enjoy the wonderful writing, acting, production, etc. and hope and trust that S6 (and S7) will have just as much to offer as S1-5.
For MC to make a statement that DM won't be healed or changed in any way implies a creative stagnation which I'm glad has not come to pass. It is common for a TV show, even very long-lived ones, on TV to showcase a main character over time who did not change at all, even given all the episodes and events they went through.
But, even though I liked many of those shows, definitely, for the shows that I really fell in love with, the main characters were more complex, had more intense characters, and did change over time, did show vulnerabilities and such. DM, of course, fits that bill and without offering us hope for DM's growth and healing over the seasons I feel the show could have gotten quite stale. For him to be the focus, and for him to be so problematic, allowing him to grow and change a little bit, spoonfeeding us, two feet forward and one foot back, still has made me so much more a fan of the show than I might have been otherwise. Sure, the writing is generally superb, the humor funny, the scenery beautiful, but if it was only that, I may indeed have left long ago.
That DM is so deeply injured, and that we learn about that, and see him struggling, off and on, to realize that, to change, to improve, to grow, to love, is the key for me with the show. For MC to have even once thought that was not a vitally important aspect of the show to develop surprises me. I'm very happy that the attitude of the writers, directors, producers changed on that accord and we have been shown our damaged hero has slowly, kicking and screaming, walked a path of healing while maintaining the grumpiness I also love.
Interesting posts, both of you. I'm relying on my memory here, so feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't MC make that statement about not wanting DM to be "healed" when he was asked in an interview if Martin has Aspberger Syndrome? Seems that MC said he doesn't want to pin a diagnosis on the character, which would imply that he could be healed (not that people with Aspberger's can be miraculously healed). Found it!
"You've been careful not to turn his character into a pathology. There was an episode in the third season, "City Slickers," where a psychiatrist labels him as having Asperger's Syndrome, which the show seems to dismiss as facile. You resist diagnosing him.
MC: Because the minute you start to diagnose him then there'd be a tendency to cure him. And as first and foremost a character actor, I've always resisted the temptation to cure any of the people I've played or make them lovable in any way; you've just got to celebrate them for what they are."
To me, that doesn't mean the character can't evolve, that he can't learn and modify his behavior over time, just that at the core, he'll always be who he is. Obviously we have seen changes in DM over time.
About the love story, I think we've read and heard in interviews (memory again, sorry) that originally Louisa was conceived as a pretty girl, a love interest, and that was about it. It was the way CC portrayed the character and the on-screen chemistry between the two characters, as well as audience interest, that resulted in their gradually bringing the love story to the forefront.
Hey, Mona, yes, you know I completely agree with you that a character must evolve in order to hold our interest over time. And our Doc continues to evolve, or at least he's learning to modify his path, just as he learned how to be "good with babies."
Quoting myself because I think I'm wrong. I think now that Martin said it at the castle, they're tied. Previously, LG was one up on him. On the porch the morning after the wine/sleeping with dog evening. In the living room when calling off the wedding.
For DM, just when he was drunk, right?
What about when he proposed? No I love you? Just I cant live without you? OK, now it is on---let's nail down who said it and when.
What about when he proposed? No I love you? Just I cant live without you? OK, now it is on---let's nail down who said it and when.
Hah!
Relying on my memory, which we know can be faulty:
Doc: S2 drunk on wine, he said, "I love you. I love you." So we can count that at once or twice, whichever.
Doc: S5 at the castle, he said, "What I'm trying to say is I love you," to Louisa and/or Sally Tishell; then "And I do love you," to Louisa, and then, "I will always..." and we get to hear about Penhale's missing radio.
Louisa: S2, the day after the wine, on Doc's porch, "I do too. I love you too." Of course that's followed by DM going off on a crazy tangent, which gets him slapped.
Louisa: S3, in her wedding dress in Martin's living room, telling him the contents of the letter she came by to leave. "It says I love you, and I do."
This is all I remember. In the proposal, no, he didn't use the L word. He said he couldn't bear to be without her. At the end of S4, when he was almost in tears and "feared the worst" when he saw the crashed taxi, and said he was wrong about this and wrong about that, he never uttered the word love.
These people obviously need help, and I volunteer to be their couple's counselor.;)
They're running new public service ads on TV here reminding new parents not to put the baby in bed with them due to the dangers of rolling onto the baby or heavy adult bed covers and pillows hindering the baby's breathing.
So, of course, every time I see it, I think of Martin, Louisa, and brand new JH. Louisa's defense, that she read it in a book, and, "They have babies in America," doesn't exactly fly.
I can't reach for the salt to sprinkle a baked potato without hearing the Doc tell Louisa about potatoes and sodium... Half the time I put the salt down unused!
Can I just say how much fun this is for me to meet a bunch of people as nerdy and obsessed with this TV show as I am!
I love all the comments of the past 2 days, but want to give a shout out to robspace for the cuddle comment. Also to everyone who contributed I Love You" tallies...I vote that Martin is ahead.
In reflecting on the interviews I have read or heard from MC, it is my impression that DM will stay grumpy and irascable, but that doesn't mean that he won't change at all. I may be projecting my desire, but I think he will stick-it-out and that the writers will come up with some new challenges that perhaps they have to face together in S6. I predict that one plot element may be a second baby, as every photo of LG on set has had her wearing a big coat that she is holding closed. I know it has been cold, but I suspect there may be more to it.
First, we have often noted and I think even there is pretty much of a consensus that the portrayal of Martin Ellingham has already changed quite a bit, between the somewhat mellower character of Season 1 to the distinctly less mellow character of later seasons -- especially S4 and S5.
We know that Martin Clunes deliberately amped up what he calls "grumpiness" -- and I think his comment about not wanting his character "healed" has wider application than Asberger's. . So I fully expect that "grumpiness" and "wrongness" (another word that MC has used to describe ME) will still be on display most of the time.
Robspace, in another of his memorable, pithy comments, said that Louisa sees in him "the good man he ought to be." (And maybe that's one of the reasons that he loves her -- because she does believe in his capacity to be a better man). To me, that means that the change that he needs, is to let down his own internal barriers against exposing the more vulnerable, loving and caring side of himself which survives, though deeply buried (and to which his blood phobia was itself a reaction)..
At the Castle, Martin did let down those barriers-- it was almost like tectonic plates shifting, or the dam breaching. It was a great breakthrough, but the question is, can it be sustained, or will he rapidly repair his defenses? I'm imagining, that like most of us, there will be some backsliding, but that moment will remain as a marker for what could be. A lot of what happens, how well that change is sustained, depends on how Louisa reacts, it seems to me, (Adelie has made a point of this in much earlier comments.)
Does anyone else wonder what is going on with the "extreme" weight loss, especially as this series follows on and will be quite noticeable. Also someone mentioned that they saw how frail AR was, what is going on in Port Wenn, I am beginning to wonder if there is going to be a "not so nice ending" to this series! Just wondering out loud.....
Eileen Atkins is very slim, and is 78 years old so she would look frail. Stephanie Cole is 71 and was stockier. Filming makes them look heavier than they are in person.
First, we have often noted and I think even there is pretty much of a consensus that the portrayal of Martin Ellingham has already changed quite a bit, between the somewhat mellower character of Season 1 to the distinctly less mellow character of later seasons -- especially S4 and S5.
We know that Martin Clunes deliberately amped up what he calls "grumpiness" -- and I think his comment about not wanting his character "healed" has wider application than Asberger's. . So I fully expect that "grumpiness" and "wrongness" (another word that MC has used to describe ME) will still be on display most of the time.
Robspace, in another of his memorable, pithy comments, said that Louisa sees in him "the good man he ought to be." (And maybe that's one of the reasons that he loves her -- because she does believe in his capacity to be a better man). To me, that means that the change that he needs, is to let down his own internal barriers against exposing the more vulnerable, loving and caring side of himself which survives, though deeply buried (and to which his blood phobia was itself a reaction)..
At the Castle, Martin did let down those barriers-- it was almost like tectonic plates shifting, or the dam breaching. It was a great breakthrough, but the question is, can it be sustained, or will he rapidly repair his defenses? I'm imagining, that like most of us, there will be some backsliding, but that moment will remain as a marker for what could be. A lot of what happens, how well that change is sustained, depends on how Louisa reacts, it seems to me, (Adelie has made a point of this in much earlier comments.)
I totally agree NewPark. I like your connection to the blood phobia, and I point to his ability to overcome the phobia (or at least manage it) as a way in which he has shown his ability to change, or as you said, open up to his emotions. I am reminded of his one visit to the psychologist in S4 when all he can say about how the phobia makes him feel is "that it is extremely inconvenient." It makes me chuckle to think of that scene.
So sorry to hear of your injury--if only you could make an appointment with Doc Martin! I'll bet the pain would vanish in an instant. I'd say just just make the appointment and you'll arrive there in your imagination. Just think of the senario: "Liedown and unbutton your blouse!" etc., etc., Later when you are feeling a bit better, you can tell us how it went!
I am working on a piece right now for a Memoir course. It's fascinating that the essence of Doc Martin somehow infuses itself into my thoughts as I write. It is almost as though it works its magic unbidden. (Reminds me of the quote: "Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit."--"Bidden or not bidden, God is present.") And here's a parallel from Jack Zipes's When Dreams Came True slightly paraphrased: The ultimate paradox of the literary fairy tale is that it wants to mark reality without leaving a trace of how it creates the wonderous effects. I would say that this is why Doc Martin is so incredible and something of the source of the discussion here. It simply cannot be distilled or boiled down!
By the way, I love Oregon and was there many years ago with the family. We fell in love with Cannon Beach. Just came to mind that the Oregan coast is Doc Martinesque. I've never been to Cornwall, so I wouldn't and perhaps shouldn't compare the two. What do you think?
Love your subject line! So Doc Martinesque of you! (and Aunt Ruth.) 'Preciate it.
Your suggested visualization got a belly laugh of delight from me first of all, but inwardly after think it may be a very entertaining way to distract myself. It has to be better than my usual tropical green room escape by far! And I can already hear "Doctor, Doctor" playing in the background. Must work on the rest of the score.
Your paragraph with the Latin quote is profound thinking and perhaps boils the attraction of the show to its essence for me. In my own way, I might say there is a "magic" or "serendipity" that has occurred with this show that defies all attempts to explain it. We can point to any number of factors, but put them all together and the show is still greater than the sum of the whole.
With that being said, our discussion of characters, place, etc. is as dynamic as the discussion of any book I've ever read and I appreciate a story that can evoke that type of discussion.
Oregon is very beautiful and I fell in love with the coast 24 years ago. Didn't quite realize I was so far from the coast on settling in Portland, but an escape to the beach is always with me. I think I could carry on a discussion of coastlines and how they play in a story or to the human heart at another time. Not quite sharp enough to do it right now.
Check out this guy's whole flickr page; it's awesome! Skillful photography and his subjects appeal. He seems to spend a lot of time in museums and photographing stained glass windows and architectural detail in churches (The Burne Jones angels from Christ Church Oxford are stunning). However, his shots of the bird-bombed window and the gumball machine selling sexy underwear as well as his complete album devoted to the bum in statuary, seem to suggest an earthy sense of humour. AND he's a doggy person, AND he's a DM fan. I think he might be my ideal guy!
I am looking forward to seeing your previous posts on subjects that interest me so much, although I may have a bit of trouble finding them. (I am somewhat technologicallychallenged!)...
I think that Groundhog Day with Bill Murray seems to bear quite a resemblance to Doc Martin: it offered us humour as well as drama and always kept us guessing; it took place in a small town with interesting inhabitants; the main character was a very flawed person who was destined to change; he falls for the beautiful and virtuous girl (pretty perfect, unlike Louisa); he struggles and fails time and again (necessarily in this movie); there is a resolution (not yet seen in Doc Martin). Have you seen this one? I wonder if there are even more movies out there that are Doc Martinesque?
Mazzie, good description of last season. My feeling is that Doc really loves Port Wenn and I see him remaining there with the family he has there now, his aunt, his wife(hopefully) and his son. If you notice he often looks purposely at the harbor as he's drinking his morning coffee, as he walks through town, just always seems to have an affection for his early childhood vacation place. I think a good solution for him missing the only thing he felt like he was good at is to be a part time surgeon in Truro. That way he can still be the town's doc but also use his surgeon skills if he desires. This would also leave the door open for another season in the future though I guess that's wishful thinking.
To find the older parts of the thread, Last Romantic, you can just put "digital spy doc martin part 13" into google and it will come up for you. I think the posts I mentioned start around page 75.
I didn't like Groundhog Day that much. Maybe it's a Bill Murray thing, and Andie MacDowell isn't my favourite either. Same with "Lost in Translation" -- people raved, I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. I very much liked the series "Pushing Daisies" which, though it went much farther into the world of magic realism, reminds me of Doc Martin because the problematic is the same. Here are two people yearning to touch one another, but they can't. Among British movies, there's one that I love called "Inside I'm Dancing." It's about two profoundly disabled young men who help one another to live independently. It's funny, it's heartbreaking (often both at once), and it has that quality of yearning as each looks to have a life that is free and love-filled despite his limitations. Again, in Doc Martin the disability is not visible, but it is a similar problem he has, and a similar yearning. "Dear Frankie" is also a British film that I like a lot, but in that case it's the yearning for a father/son relationship. I watched "Local Hero" and you were right -- it's a gem. I see more of the comparisons with Ned Devine than I do with Doc Martin, though "the village" acts as a character in all those movies, and in that sense they're similar.
We've had a discussion previously on the forum about whether the human journey we understand the Doc to be on must necessarily include a remediation of his feelings toward the village. Conversely, is Louisa's attachment to the village part of her core identity as she says to Danny that it is in S2E7, or should she honour Martin's gesture of being willing to stay in the village for her, by being herself a little flexible on the "where we live" question? I think, Arizona desert, that I am inclined to take Martin at his word when he says in the last episode of S5 "and I do hate Portwenn". But I think that part of the movement we will have to see in S6 if the series is to achieve the parabolic shape I think it is meant to have, has to do with a remediation of his feelings toward the village. Bookfan2 and I were contending for that at any rate in the previous discussion, whereas others felt that what needed to happen was for Louisa to "spread her wings."
I am working on a piece right now for a Memoir course. It's fascinating that the essence of Doc Martin somehow infuses itself into my thoughts as I write. It is almost as though it works its magic unbidden. (Reminds me of the quote: "Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit."--"Bidden or not bidden, God is present.") ...
By the way, I love Oregon and was there many years ago with the family. We fell in love with Cannon Beach. Just came to mind that the Oregan coast is Doc Martinesque. I've never been to Cornwall, so I wouldn't and perhaps shouldn't compare the two. What do you think?
Are you saying that DM is God?! That it provides a metanarrative for life such as some people take from a religious or political creed? I've sometimes referred to "the cult" of Doc Martin, but have yet to make it my religion!
I do agree with you about the Oregon coast and Cornwall. In 1997 I took one of those road trips down the Western coast of the US with a few friends that would have made a great travel movie. ....That's another story, but I remember driving that coast road with my mouth hanging open at the beauty. It was nearing sunset and the sky was hazy and pink, like in a serigraph, and I remember exclaiming "the mists of Avalon." That was before I had been to Cornwall, and now that I have seen both, I think the trees are different, but both places inspire you to imagine lost worlds that exist on the verge of literal geography and the realm of myth and legend.
One thing that particularly annoys me through season 5 is the lack of acknowledgement of how much Martin is doing to help with James. Particularly Louisa who does not defend him to her mother. His perfect little world has been completely disrupted. She breaks the espresso machine and the venetian tumbler and he does not get angry with her. He is expressing his love through his actions even if not vocalizing it.
Yes that was strange. Another of those complete character changes for LG because she usually defends him and in this case she should have defended him. Some of these character lapses in s5 were plot driven ( when AR, a psychiatrist, says people can't change) but this lapse wasn't even plot driven.
Hi DM_Wonk, welcome to the forum. I very much agree with you that Martin's way of showing love has to do with "acts-of-service." Louisa also gives and receives love through "acts-of-service" (we've seen this, for example, with her visit to Roger Fenn, her finding of a practical solution for his financial difficulty etc.) but she also needs "words of affirmation." (Viz. Gary Chapman's _Five Love Languages_), and that is certainly not the native love language of our Doc Martin.
I think that early in the series at least there is a distrust of people who use fine words (Danny, Gavin Peters (the Doctor's friend)) vs. those who show love in more substantial ways. I remember a professor of mine used to say that this distrust of airy words was a hallmark of English literature and drama, since the days of Shakespeare. When Shakespeare wants to show that someone is not very trustworthy he has them using all kinds of Latinates. When he wants to signal sincerity he tones down the diction ("gives to airy nothings, a local habitation and a name"), uses sturdy Anglo-Saxon words, and makes reference to homely British things ("cowslips, milk and leeks") (AMSND). We are supposed to value the Doc for the substance that is in him, and see past his monosyllabic gruffness, and it is because Louisa has always been able to do this that she remains attracted to him when much of the village wonders why.
I think in many ways the issue which drives the plot of S5 is where people are going to draw their lines of solidarity. (I think DM as a whole is very concerned with "lines of solidarity," as who decides to stand with whom at critical moments (eg. Martin standing with Joan instead of with his parents, has made for some of the most powerful scenes the show created). In S5 things start to get really bad between Louisa and Martin from a very particular point. It's that point where Eleanor negotiates her way back into Louisa's life, and they drink on it. Louisa says "don't tell Martin." In my own mind I've labeled that scene "the devil's chalice" because what Louisa has done is decide that the relationship with her mother is more worth pursuing than the relationship with Martin is worth protecting (from the toxicity which is Eleanor). That issue is resolved at the end of S5 when Louisa and Martin have to trust one another and work together to get back James Henry. When he's calling up to Mrs. Tishell in the window of the castle Martin has two women shouting advice at him, and I think it is quite significant that he rejects the professional, scientific advice of his Aunt Ruth (who also creates interference in the relationship between Martin and Louisa in S5) in order to trust and listen to Louisa's coaching. MC's friend Julian Fellowes who writes the Downton Abbey series uses the phrase "on my side" (eg. Mary accusing Matthew of not being "on her side" etc.) so much that I think he should find a new phrase, but this is the same concern with solidarity that we see in DM. Maybe it is the central question which boys who grow up bullied in English boarding schools ask of the people in their world: "is this someone who is 'on my side' or who is not 'on my side." Certainly solidarity means EVERYTHING to Martin. Robspace, I'm trying to imagine Martin's face if he read your characterisation of him as a man going through his life with a silent cry that screams "cuddle me". But he certainly has this strong need for his male friends to pat him on the back as Roger Fenn does and say "you know I'm there for you, old boy" and I think, had he known what Louisa had said to Adrian Pitts at the end of S1, he would have been extremely gratified.
Comments
Wonderful comment, Rob - so well said.
So, when is she going to start? Other than admiring him for his morality - she wasn't able to find any other descriptors - just "he's Martin". In all other ways it seems that the LG character just points out what is missing rather than what is there.
Someone earlier pointed out that other than in Erotomania when she comes to the surgery with the hangover cure, she never tells him she loves him. And even in that episode her purpose was to seduce him. The "I do too" comment came after he had professed his love.
It is just tough love for Martin all the way round - his parents were vile, Joan was more apt to admonish him for his behavior, Ruth is certainly no warm fuzzy, and Louisa comes and goes.
So sugery was the thing that he loved and it loved him back until that fateful day. So now he has something new to love - JH, and if he goes away to London - then JH becomes Louisa's / Portwenn's son and Martin runs the risk of becoming a visitor in the life of the one person who can truly save him
Okay, this is saaddd, but it made my day! The Co-op grocery store in PI is right next to the B&B I stayed in there. It is also the same chain where MC shops in Beaminster, I found when visiting there. So .... MC and I have now pushed open the same two doors, stepped over the same two thresholds, potentially may have put our hands on the same two items,...... sigh.....
I'm on pain meds right now for a nerve injury I've caused meself, so am reading but not putting thoughts together so well, but the latest discussion started by Last Romantic over the last few pages has been fascinating. A great distraction for me. Keep up the good work.
And hello, Adelie. I'd been wondering about you, too. Still got the Pusser's cups handy, if you need a break.
I think someone recently pointed out that DM and LG were tied in the "I love you" department right up until the castle, where DM pulled ahead. She told him she loved him on the porch in Erotomania and again while standing there in her wedding dress in his living room ("It said that I love you, and I do...", or something close to that) at the end of S3. So, yes, now she needs to catch up.
You're right that the real love story right now for DM is JH. After all of that protesting that Louisa doesn't want him involved and he wouldn't be very good at all that, once the baby actually arrived, I think DM fell head over heels. As he said, "It's different now that he's here." I'm so looking forward to more scenes with DM and JH in S6.
So, of course, every time I see it, I think of Martin, Louisa, and brand new JH. Louisa's defense, that she read it in a book, and, "They have babies in America," doesn't exactly fly.
Quoting myself because I think I'm wrong. I think now that Martin said it at the castle, they're tied. Previously, LG was one up on him. On the porch the morning after the wine/sleeping with dog evening. In the living room when calling off the wedding.
For DM, just when he was drunk, right?
Good morning (oops, afternoon) SusieSagitarius!
So sorry to hear of your injury--if only you could make an appointment with Doc Martin! I'll bet the pain would vanish in an instant. I'd say just just make the appointment and you'll arrive there in your imagination. Just think of the senario: "Lie down and unbutton your blouse!" etc., etc., Later when you are feeling a bit better, you can tell us how it went!
I am working on a piece right now for a Memoir course. It's fascinating that the essence of Doc Martin somehow infuses itself into my thoughts as I write. It is almost as though it works its magic unbidden. (Reminds me of the quote: "Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit."--"Bidden or not bidden, God is present.") And here's a parallel from Jack Zipes's When Dreams Came True slightly paraphrased: The ultimate paradox of the literary fairy tale is that it wants to mark reality without leaving a trace of how it creates the wonderous effects. I would say that this is why Doc Martin is so incredible and something of the source of the discussion here. It simply cannot be distilled or boiled down!
By the way, I love Oregon and was there many years ago with the family. We fell in love with Cannon Beach. Just came to mind that the Oregan coast is Doc Martinesque. I've never been to Cornwall, so I wouldn't and perhaps shouldn't compare the two. What do you think?
For MC to make a statement that DM won't be healed or changed in any way implies a creative stagnation which I'm glad has not come to pass. It is common for a TV show, even very long-lived ones, on TV to showcase a main character over time who did not change at all, even given all the episodes and events they went through.
But, even though I liked many of those shows, definitely, for the shows that I really fell in love with, the main characters were more complex, had more intense characters, and did change over time, did show vulnerabilities and such. DM, of course, fits that bill and without offering us hope for DM's growth and healing over the seasons I feel the show could have gotten quite stale. For him to be the focus, and for him to be so problematic, allowing him to grow and change a little bit, spoonfeeding us, two feet forward and one foot back, still has made me so much more a fan of the show than I might have been otherwise. Sure, the writing is generally superb, the humor funny, the scenery beautiful, but if it was only that, I may indeed have left long ago.
That DM is so deeply injured, and that we learn about that, and see him struggling, off and on, to realize that, to change, to improve, to grow, to love, is the key for me with the show. For MC to have even once thought that was not a vitally important aspect of the show to develop surprises me. I'm very happy that the attitude of the writers, directors, producers changed on that accord and we have been shown our damaged hero has slowly, kicking and screaming, walked a path of healing while maintaining the grumpiness I also love.
I would also like to add that Doc was just about to add "I will always..... when Penhale interrupts so he's improving by leaps and bounds.
Such an achingly poignant description of Martin--I was close to tears when I read it...
Interesting posts, both of you. I'm relying on my memory here, so feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't MC make that statement about not wanting DM to be "healed" when he was asked in an interview if Martin has Aspberger Syndrome? Seems that MC said he doesn't want to pin a diagnosis on the character, which would imply that he could be healed (not that people with Aspberger's can be miraculously healed). Found it!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2012/04/martin-clunes-talks-doc-martin.html
"You've been careful not to turn his character into a pathology. There was an episode in the third season, "City Slickers," where a psychiatrist labels him as having Asperger's Syndrome, which the show seems to dismiss as facile. You resist diagnosing him.
MC: Because the minute you start to diagnose him then there'd be a tendency to cure him. And as first and foremost a character actor, I've always resisted the temptation to cure any of the people I've played or make them lovable in any way; you've just got to celebrate them for what they are."
To me, that doesn't mean the character can't evolve, that he can't learn and modify his behavior over time, just that at the core, he'll always be who he is. Obviously we have seen changes in DM over time.
About the love story, I think we've read and heard in interviews (memory again, sorry) that originally Louisa was conceived as a pretty girl, a love interest, and that was about it. It was the way CC portrayed the character and the on-screen chemistry between the two characters, as well as audience interest, that resulted in their gradually bringing the love story to the forefront.
Hey, Mona, yes, you know I completely agree with you that a character must evolve in order to hold our interest over time. And our Doc continues to evolve, or at least he's learning to modify his path, just as he learned how to be "good with babies."
What about when he proposed? No I love you? Just I cant live without you? OK, now it is on---let's nail down who said it and when.
Hah!
Relying on my memory, which we know can be faulty:
Doc: S2 drunk on wine, he said, "I love you. I love you." So we can count that at once or twice, whichever.
Doc: S5 at the castle, he said, "What I'm trying to say is I love you," to Louisa and/or Sally Tishell; then "And I do love you," to Louisa, and then, "I will always..." and we get to hear about Penhale's missing radio.
Louisa: S2, the day after the wine, on Doc's porch, "I do too. I love you too." Of course that's followed by DM going off on a crazy tangent, which gets him slapped.
Louisa: S3, in her wedding dress in Martin's living room, telling him the contents of the letter she came by to leave. "It says I love you, and I do."
This is all I remember. In the proposal, no, he didn't use the L word. He said he couldn't bear to be without her. At the end of S4, when he was almost in tears and "feared the worst" when he saw the crashed taxi, and said he was wrong about this and wrong about that, he never uttered the word love.
These people obviously need help, and I volunteer to be their couple's counselor.;)
Please jump in if I've forgotten anything.
I can't reach for the salt to sprinkle a baked potato without hearing the Doc tell Louisa about potatoes and sodium...
I love all the comments of the past 2 days, but want to give a shout out to robspace for the cuddle comment. Also to everyone who contributed I Love You" tallies...I vote that Martin is ahead.
In reflecting on the interviews I have read or heard from MC, it is my impression that DM will stay grumpy and irascable, but that doesn't mean that he won't change at all. I may be projecting my desire, but I think he will stick-it-out and that the writers will come up with some new challenges that perhaps they have to face together in S6. I predict that one plot element may be a second baby, as every photo of LG on set has had her wearing a big coat that she is holding closed. I know it has been cold, but I suspect there may be more to it.
Thank you all!
First, we have often noted and I think even there is pretty much of a consensus that the portrayal of Martin Ellingham has already changed quite a bit, between the somewhat mellower character of Season 1 to the distinctly less mellow character of later seasons -- especially S4 and S5.
We know that Martin Clunes deliberately amped up what he calls "grumpiness" -- and I think his comment about not wanting his character "healed" has wider application than Asberger's. . So I fully expect that "grumpiness" and "wrongness" (another word that MC has used to describe ME) will still be on display most of the time.
Robspace, in another of his memorable, pithy comments, said that Louisa sees in him "the good man he ought to be." (And maybe that's one of the reasons that he loves her -- because she does believe in his capacity to be a better man). To me, that means that the change that he needs, is to let down his own internal barriers against exposing the more vulnerable, loving and caring side of himself which survives, though deeply buried (and to which his blood phobia was itself a reaction)..
At the Castle, Martin did let down those barriers-- it was almost like tectonic plates shifting, or the dam breaching. It was a great breakthrough, but the question is, can it be sustained, or will he rapidly repair his defenses? I'm imagining, that like most of us, there will be some backsliding, but that moment will remain as a marker for what could be. A lot of what happens, how well that change is sustained, depends on how Louisa reacts, it seems to me, (Adelie has made a point of this in much earlier comments.)
Eileen Atkins is very slim, and is 78 years old so she would look frail. Stephanie Cole is 71 and was stockier. Filming makes them look heavier than they are in person.
I totally agree NewPark. I like your connection to the blood phobia, and I point to his ability to overcome the phobia (or at least manage it) as a way in which he has shown his ability to change, or as you said, open up to his emotions. I am reminded of his one visit to the psychologist in S4 when all he can say about how the phobia makes him feel is "that it is extremely inconvenient." It makes me chuckle to think of that scene.
Love your subject line! So Doc Martinesque of you! (and Aunt Ruth.) 'Preciate it.
Your suggested visualization got a belly laugh of delight from me first of all, but inwardly after think it may be a very entertaining way to distract myself. It has to be better than my usual tropical green room escape by far! And I can already hear "Doctor, Doctor" playing in the background. Must work on the rest of the score.
Your paragraph with the Latin quote is profound thinking and perhaps boils the attraction of the show to its essence for me. In my own way, I might say there is a "magic" or "serendipity" that has occurred with this show that defies all attempts to explain it. We can point to any number of factors, but put them all together and the show is still greater than the sum of the whole.
With that being said, our discussion of characters, place, etc. is as dynamic as the discussion of any book I've ever read and I appreciate a story that can evoke that type of discussion.
Oregon is very beautiful and I fell in love with the coast 24 years ago. Didn't quite realize I was so far from the coast on settling in Portland, but an escape to the beach is always with me. I think I could carry on a discussion of coastlines and how they play in a story or to the human heart at another time. Not quite sharp enough to do it right now.
Check out this guy's whole flickr page; it's awesome! Skillful photography and his subjects appeal. He seems to spend a lot of time in museums and photographing stained glass windows and architectural detail in churches (The Burne Jones angels from Christ Church Oxford are stunning). However, his shots of the bird-bombed window and the gumball machine selling sexy underwear as well as his complete album devoted to the bum in statuary, seem to suggest an earthy sense of humour. AND he's a doggy person, AND he's a DM fan. I think he might be my ideal guy!
To find the older parts of the thread, Last Romantic, you can just put "digital spy doc martin part 13" into google and it will come up for you. I think the posts I mentioned start around page 75.
I didn't like Groundhog Day that much. Maybe it's a Bill Murray thing, and Andie MacDowell isn't my favourite either. Same with "Lost in Translation" -- people raved, I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. I very much liked the series "Pushing Daisies" which, though it went much farther into the world of magic realism, reminds me of Doc Martin because the problematic is the same. Here are two people yearning to touch one another, but they can't. Among British movies, there's one that I love called "Inside I'm Dancing." It's about two profoundly disabled young men who help one another to live independently. It's funny, it's heartbreaking (often both at once), and it has that quality of yearning as each looks to have a life that is free and love-filled despite his limitations. Again, in Doc Martin the disability is not visible, but it is a similar problem he has, and a similar yearning. "Dear Frankie" is also a British film that I like a lot, but in that case it's the yearning for a father/son relationship. I watched "Local Hero" and you were right -- it's a gem. I see more of the comparisons with Ned Devine than I do with Doc Martin, though "the village" acts as a character in all those movies, and in that sense they're similar.
We've had a discussion previously on the forum about whether the human journey we understand the Doc to be on must necessarily include a remediation of his feelings toward the village. Conversely, is Louisa's attachment to the village part of her core identity as she says to Danny that it is in S2E7, or should she honour Martin's gesture of being willing to stay in the village for her, by being herself a little flexible on the "where we live" question? I think, Arizona desert, that I am inclined to take Martin at his word when he says in the last episode of S5 "and I do hate Portwenn". But I think that part of the movement we will have to see in S6 if the series is to achieve the parabolic shape I think it is meant to have, has to do with a remediation of his feelings toward the village. Bookfan2 and I were contending for that at any rate in the previous discussion, whereas others felt that what needed to happen was for Louisa to "spread her wings."
What's happened to Bookfan2? I miss her.
Are you saying that DM is God?! That it provides a metanarrative for life such as some people take from a religious or political creed? I've sometimes referred to "the cult" of Doc Martin, but have yet to make it my religion!
I do agree with you about the Oregon coast and Cornwall. In 1997 I took one of those road trips down the Western coast of the US with a few friends that would have made a great travel movie. ....That's another story, but I remember driving that coast road with my mouth hanging open at the beauty. It was nearing sunset and the sky was hazy and pink, like in a serigraph, and I remember exclaiming "the mists of Avalon." That was before I had been to Cornwall, and now that I have seen both, I think the trees are different, but both places inspire you to imagine lost worlds that exist on the verge of literal geography and the realm of myth and legend.
Hi DM_Wonk, welcome to the forum. I very much agree with you that Martin's way of showing love has to do with "acts-of-service." Louisa also gives and receives love through "acts-of-service" (we've seen this, for example, with her visit to Roger Fenn, her finding of a practical solution for his financial difficulty etc.) but she also needs "words of affirmation." (Viz. Gary Chapman's _Five Love Languages_), and that is certainly not the native love language of our Doc Martin.
I think that early in the series at least there is a distrust of people who use fine words (Danny, Gavin Peters (the Doctor's friend)) vs. those who show love in more substantial ways. I remember a professor of mine used to say that this distrust of airy words was a hallmark of English literature and drama, since the days of Shakespeare. When Shakespeare wants to show that someone is not very trustworthy he has them using all kinds of Latinates. When he wants to signal sincerity he tones down the diction ("gives to airy nothings, a local habitation and a name"), uses sturdy Anglo-Saxon words, and makes reference to homely British things ("cowslips, milk and leeks") (AMSND). We are supposed to value the Doc for the substance that is in him, and see past his monosyllabic gruffness, and it is because Louisa has always been able to do this that she remains attracted to him when much of the village wonders why.
I think in many ways the issue which drives the plot of S5 is where people are going to draw their lines of solidarity. (I think DM as a whole is very concerned with "lines of solidarity," as who decides to stand with whom at critical moments (eg. Martin standing with Joan instead of with his parents, has made for some of the most powerful scenes the show created). In S5 things start to get really bad between Louisa and Martin from a very particular point. It's that point where Eleanor negotiates her way back into Louisa's life, and they drink on it. Louisa says "don't tell Martin." In my own mind I've labeled that scene "the devil's chalice" because what Louisa has done is decide that the relationship with her mother is more worth pursuing than the relationship with Martin is worth protecting (from the toxicity which is Eleanor). That issue is resolved at the end of S5 when Louisa and Martin have to trust one another and work together to get back James Henry. When he's calling up to Mrs. Tishell in the window of the castle Martin has two women shouting advice at him, and I think it is quite significant that he rejects the professional, scientific advice of his Aunt Ruth (who also creates interference in the relationship between Martin and Louisa in S5) in order to trust and listen to Louisa's coaching. MC's friend Julian Fellowes who writes the Downton Abbey series uses the phrase "on my side" (eg. Mary accusing Matthew of not being "on her side" etc.) so much that I think he should find a new phrase, but this is the same concern with solidarity that we see in DM. Maybe it is the central question which boys who grow up bullied in English boarding schools ask of the people in their world: "is this someone who is 'on my side' or who is not 'on my side." Certainly solidarity means EVERYTHING to Martin. Robspace, I'm trying to imagine Martin's face if he read your characterisation of him as a man going through his life with a silent cry that screams "cuddle me". But he certainly has this strong need for his male friends to pat him on the back as Roger Fenn does and say "you know I'm there for you, old boy" and I think, had he known what Louisa had said to Adrian Pitts at the end of S1, he would have been extremely gratified.