Seriously, some people on this thread are so hypocritical it's untrue. They say how it's wrong to stereotype people and be offensive then go on to say how it's geeky, single men who play games. Or say how they want equality but put down other peoples greivanced about inequality because 'they suffer more'. It's so stupid and hypocritical it's untrue.
I'd wager everyone has suffered from prejudice, or inequality, etc. at some point in their life, they have a right to want that gone. It doesn't matter if black people or gay people or women have (or do) suffered 'more' than other 'groups' of people, everyone has the right to equality... that's kind of the point... People who came on here and said things along the lines of "men suffer too!" are stupid, they may do but that doesn't mean the original point isn't valid... but equality those who reply with rants about the suffering of women everywhere are just as bad because they're doing the same thing.
We'll never acheive equality because nobody actually wants it. They just want the best they can get.
I've been in online communities that are so male dominated I've always ended up leaving because I felt so uncomfortable there.
Sexism online is as real as sexism offline and it can be so unpleasant to witness it/be on the receiving end of it...even if it is just words on a screen.
Article about it here at Kotaku with quotes from the executive producer about it.
Ok I take it back. Not sure how I feel about that tbh. You could say "well women want to be treated like guys so why shouldnt a female video game character be attacked in a game as male ones are". But rape yeah I think thats too much. I just hope it's not graphic .
I think you'll find Jen was not making the statement that gamers are all men without girlfriends, but was merely reposting that EVEN IF that were the case, it would still be damaging and self-perpetuating to have women poorly portrayed in games.
Now, here is someone who didn't reach the end of the post. If you took the time to read it properly, the gist of that post was that it re-inforced gender stereotypes of women for both men and women. I was replying to another post. Perhaps you'd like to go back and read the post in its entirety, in context?
Yes, there are female murder victims in the game but as LA Noire is reflecting the genre of Hollywood noire films, that's to be expected - it doesn't make it sexist. You might as well object to all the dead men in war films.
The games are copying sexist films, so that makes them not sexist? Interesting logic And don't say the films were reflecting real life, because they weren't. LA has had female cops since 1910, for a start.
I really don't see that not featuring women in games is part of the problem. The vast majority of games are targeted at men and reflect male fantasies of being a soldier, cop, cowboy, warrior, criminal etc. Given that agenda, I would say that gamemakers are remarkably responsible in not ladling on female stereotypes.
Well, I'm not starting from the same assumptions as you, obviously - I don't think games are or should be just targeted at (straight, usually white) men.
Exactly, and that is the issue. The fact that women can't make any comment any place online without receiving vicious sexual attacks from people who simply disagree with them.
Almost any woman who is in public view, whether in politics, on TV or in newspapers or on the radio is at risk of the same sort of derogatory comments and abusive name-calling. They are always of the same type: comments about looks: usually, ugly; brains: usually, stupid; sexual comments and innuendo: anything from rating a woman's degree of sexual appeal to speculation about her sex life and even threats of sexual and physical violence; and a special language and dedicated vocabulary of abuse to carry all of the above contempt and hatred; this will include words such as harridan, harpy, hag and worse.And it's not just teenage boys and young men doing it, either.
Yes, there are female murder victims in the game but as LA Noire is reflecting the genre of Hollywood noire films, that's to be expected - it doesn't make it sexist. You might as well object to all the dead men in war films.
I really don't see that not featuring women in games is part of the problem. The vast majority of games are targeted at men and reflect male fantasies of being a soldier, cop, cowboy, warrior, criminal etc. Given that agenda, I would say that gamemakers are remarkably responsible in not ladling on female stereotypes.
I don't understand how that is "remarkably responsible" as far I have my own male fantasies of being a cop, soldier, cowboy or warrior they don't require a butt-shot of every female character. Wouldn't it be more responsible to just leave out the unnecessary shallow, badly realised titillation and concentrate on the killing and gameplay?
I think you'll find Jen was not making the statement that gamers are all men without girlfriends, but was merely reposting that EVEN IF that were the case, it would still be damaging and self-perpetuating to have women poorly portrayed in games.
Now, here is someone who didn't reach the end of the post. If you took the time to read it properly, the gist of that post was that it re-inforced gender stereotypes of women for both men and women. I was replying to another post. Perhaps you'd like to go back and read the post in its entirety, in context?
My appologises and that part of my post (which I was editing at the time of your post) has been removed. However I did read it, I simply misintirpreted it. I read it as "Sad, single men play them" rather than "there are sad, single men who play them" which I now assume/realise is what you meant.
Ok I take it back. Not sure how I feel about that tbh. You could say "well women want to be treated like guys so why shouldnt a female video game character be attacked in a game as male ones are". But rape yeah I think thats too much. I just hope it's not graphic .
Yeah - I'm sure it's not the only game that uses rape, but I think it's particularly annoying because Lara Croft is such an iconic role for women in games.
I can't imagine a game using male rape in the same way, either.
That said, I do despair at some of the female fantasy figures - particularly models (the tiny things - 50mm etc.), big-boobed, tiny waist and normally in a thong of some description. But that's another thread.
It's the clothing that gets me. Tiny tank-tops and shorts, bared midriffs and high heels are not practical fighting wear!
And as for the typical armour...!
I'm really incredulous that THIS part of the story that everyone is focussing on.
The article is not about whether there is stereotyping in video games or not, it's about a woman who wants to discuss a topic she cares about being the target of HORRIFIC abuse.
IF a man had posted a video on YouTube about how he wanted to discuss this topic, do you think he'd find his Wiki photo had been changed to an explicit sex act? Do you think his videos would be flagged for terrorism? Do you think he'd receive violent and sexually violent threats? Do you think his clothing, hairstyle and face would be attacked? Do you think his racial heritage would be used against him in an aggressive way?
It's the clothing that gets me. Tiny tank-tops and shorts, bared midriffs and high heels are not practical fighting wear!
And as for the typical armour...!
Do not get me started. 'Normal' clothed models do exist, but there is an awful lot of rubbish out there. Not helpful to either men or women, that. *Shudder*
Oh for f*cks sake. Not another woman complaining about the way women are perceived in targeted items.
This whole thing over equality will never happen, because women won't allow it to happen, they want equal treatment to men on certain things but the expect to be treated differently on others.
When sexism is used against men no one cares. Just because it is the other way the women get their knickers all in a twist.
Wonder how many women complain about the new Yorkie adverts, where the man had to bring the shopping in because the woman was sat on the sofa doing her nails.
Excuse me but women have suffered for centuries at the hands of men with constant abuse and domestic violence and oppression they had to fight for legal equality for decades men already had legal equality and were already treated superior to women.
The thing is some men just don`t like being challenged by a woman they don`t like a woman having legal equality either which is plain sexist and pathetic.
No woman deserves to be threatened with sexual abuse or harrassed for speaking her mind that is just sick.
Excuse me but women have suffered for centuries at the hands of men with constant abuse and domestic violence and oppression they had to fight for legal equality for decades men already had legal equality and were already treated superior to women.
The thing is some men just don`t like being challenged by a woman they don`t like a woman having legal equality either which is plain sexist and pathetic.
No woman deserves to be threatened with sexual abuse or harrassed for speaking her mind that is just sick.
Damn those 200 year old men and their violent oppression.
I've noticed that almost any Youtube video involving a woman often becomes the target for disgusting, abusive comments, usually sexual and often violent. It is very depressing. It doesn't matter what the woman is doing, or whether or not she is attractive, fully-clothed or even of age. It still happens.
There are some seriously sick minded and twisted men out there, I think some of them could do with some psychiatric therapy.
Ok sorry . But its interesting that I mentioned Enslaved because in that game the lead character (male) in my opinion is portrayed as a stupid clumsy oaf (something I as a male didnt mind in fact I found it funny).
Clumsy and an oaf!? The way he swings about the place and throws his baton thingy about?! He is also revealed to be an all round likeable, nice guy as well. Certainly burly and muscular considering he had a bit of a rough past, but not ALL brawn!
Anyway, the woman is the winner at the end of the day, she needed $6k, she got $55k, so. O doubt can make a bigger and better video series than planned
I think (but may be wrong) the point he was making is you can't hold events of yester-year against people. It would be like blaming the current generation of Germans for the two World Wars. Or holding every Brit responsible for slavery, etc. Doesn't mean things don't still go on, but saying things have gone on for a long time has no real bearing on things. If it goes on now, it's a problem, if it doesn't things are grand; the past has little bearing on the present.
Are you stating there is no inequality anymore?? Or is that just a predictable dig?....
I know which one I think it is...
It's a bit of both really. I find it a shame that the attitudes of men 200 years ago are being compared to the attitudes of men today. Are you stating that the two are the same?
I think (but may be wrong) the point he was making is you can't hold events of yester-year against people. It would be like blaming the current generation of Germans for the two World Wars. Or holding every Brit responsible for slavery, etc. Doesn't mean things don't still go on, but saying things have gone on for a long time has no real bearing on things. If it goes on now, it's a problem, if it doesn't things are grand; the past has little bearing on the present.
Clumsy and an oaf!? The way he swings about the place and throws his baton thingy about?! He is also revealed to be an all round likeable, nice guy as well. Certainly burly and muscular considering he had a bit of a rough past, but not ALL brawn!
Anyway, the woman is the winner at the end of the day, she needed $6k, she got $55k, so. O doubt can make a bigger and better video series than planned
Yes there are numerous instances where he is made to look an utter **** and she (and other minor characters such as Pig) get the better of him.
Almost any woman who is in public view, whether in politics, on TV or in newspapers or on the radio is at risk of the same sort of derogatory comments and abusive name-calling. They are always of the same type: comments about looks: usually, ugly; brains: usually, stupid; sexual comments and innuendo: anything from rating a woman's degree of sexual appeal to speculation about her sex life and even threats of sexual and physical violence; and a special language and dedicated vocabulary of abuse to carry all of the above contempt and hatred; this will include words such as harridan, harpy, hag and worse.And it's not just teenage boys and young men doing it, either.
I'm fairly sure that the reason that type of abuse is used because they are percieved as being the most hurtful things to say to a woman.
The abuse that men online get is equally sexed based in nature... men will be called a rapist or a pedo, he'll have the size of his manhood questioned, he'll be called a "homo", these are percieved as the most hurtful things you can say to a man.
Both are equally nasty, cowardly and unpleasant.
It would be much better if people could frame a reasonable counter argument for everything they come across online but they can't.
Comments
I'd rather be able to comment online without being threatened with rape, than be able to take the p out of geeky boys.
Geeky boys are quite good fun sometimes.
I'd wager everyone has suffered from prejudice, or inequality, etc. at some point in their life, they have a right to want that gone. It doesn't matter if black people or gay people or women have (or do) suffered 'more' than other 'groups' of people, everyone has the right to equality... that's kind of the point... People who came on here and said things along the lines of "men suffer too!" are stupid, they may do but that doesn't mean the original point isn't valid... but equality those who reply with rants about the suffering of women everywhere are just as bad because they're doing the same thing.
We'll never acheive equality because nobody actually wants it. They just want the best they can get.
Sexism online is as real as sexism offline and it can be so unpleasant to witness it/be on the receiving end of it...even if it is just words on a screen.
I think you'll find Jen was not making the statement that gamers are all men without girlfriends, but was merely reposting that EVEN IF that were the case, it would still be damaging and self-perpetuating to have women poorly portrayed in games.
Now, here is someone who didn't reach the end of the post. If you took the time to read it properly, the gist of that post was that it re-inforced gender stereotypes of women for both men and women. I was replying to another post. Perhaps you'd like to go back and read the post in its entirety, in context?
Well, I'm not starting from the same assumptions as you, obviously - I don't think games are or should be just targeted at (straight, usually white) men.
Almost any woman who is in public view, whether in politics, on TV or in newspapers or on the radio is at risk of the same sort of derogatory comments and abusive name-calling. They are always of the same type: comments about looks: usually, ugly; brains: usually, stupid; sexual comments and innuendo: anything from rating a woman's degree of sexual appeal to speculation about her sex life and even threats of sexual and physical violence; and a special language and dedicated vocabulary of abuse to carry all of the above contempt and hatred; this will include words such as harridan, harpy, hag and worse.And it's not just teenage boys and young men doing it, either.
I don't understand how that is "remarkably responsible" as far I have my own male fantasies of being a cop, soldier, cowboy or warrior they don't require a butt-shot of every female character. Wouldn't it be more responsible to just leave out the unnecessary shallow, badly realised titillation and concentrate on the killing and gameplay?
My appologises and that part of my post (which I was editing at the time of your post) has been removed. However I did read it, I simply misintirpreted it. I read it as "Sad, single men play them" rather than "there are sad, single men who play them" which I now assume/realise is what you meant.
I can't imagine a game using male rape in the same way, either.
It's the clothing that gets me. Tiny tank-tops and shorts, bared midriffs and high heels are not practical fighting wear!
And as for the typical armour...!
Yes...
Do not get me started. 'Normal' clothed models do exist, but there is an awful lot of rubbish out there. Not helpful to either men or women, that. *Shudder*
Excuse me but women have suffered for centuries at the hands of men with constant abuse and domestic violence and oppression they had to fight for legal equality for decades men already had legal equality and were already treated superior to women.
The thing is some men just don`t like being challenged by a woman they don`t like a woman having legal equality either which is plain sexist and pathetic.
No woman deserves to be threatened with sexual abuse or harrassed for speaking her mind that is just sick.
Damn those 200 year old men and their violent oppression.
There are some seriously sick minded and twisted men out there, I think some of them could do with some psychiatric therapy.
Clumsy and an oaf!? The way he swings about the place and throws his baton thingy about?! He is also revealed to be an all round likeable, nice guy as well. Certainly burly and muscular considering he had a bit of a rough past, but not ALL brawn!
Anyway, the woman is the winner at the end of the day, she needed $6k, she got $55k, so. O doubt can make a bigger and better video series than planned
Very informative......
Are you stating there is no inequality anymore?? Or is that just a predictable dig?....
I know which one I think it is...
Fun times:D
I think (but may be wrong) the point he was making is you can't hold events of yester-year against people. It would be like blaming the current generation of Germans for the two World Wars. Or holding every Brit responsible for slavery, etc. Doesn't mean things don't still go on, but saying things have gone on for a long time has no real bearing on things. If it goes on now, it's a problem, if it doesn't things are grand; the past has little bearing on the present.
It's a bit of both really. I find it a shame that the attitudes of men 200 years ago are being compared to the attitudes of men today. Are you stating that the two are the same?
I honestly am not sure which one I think it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg
Bingo!
I'm fairly sure that the reason that type of abuse is used because they are percieved as being the most hurtful things to say to a woman.
The abuse that men online get is equally sexed based in nature... men will be called a rapist or a pedo, he'll have the size of his manhood questioned, he'll be called a "homo", these are percieved as the most hurtful things you can say to a man.
Both are equally nasty, cowardly and unpleasant.
It would be much better if people could frame a reasonable counter argument for everything they come across online but they can't.