Just remember that last part when you hear US politicians demanding that Putin does as they ask, or you hear people calling the Russians names,
I am NOT for one second defending those that murdered all those innocent people, just pointing out that some of us have a memory and that the USA are bloody hypocrites.
I agree about the hypocrisy but I seriously doubt it was murder. The only people who deliberately blow up civilians are the sort of people that would be claiming credit for the attack the second it happened and as no one has done so I think we can safely rule out a deliberate attack. Accidents happen and when they do they are tragic but they remain accidents and unless everyone who ever accidentally killed a civilian in war has to face a murder charge we can't really be calling these people murderers. Far more likely that they genuinely thought they were shooting down a Ukranian military transport but hit a passenger plane by mistake.
Ukraine's prime minister has announced his resignation in protest of the disbanding of the ruling coalition in parliament following the withdrawal of several pro-European parties.
'Two Dutch Military Planes Carrying Victims From The Malaysia Plane Crash Land In The Netherlands'
Oh dear, they could have worded that better
I thought that too! When I first read that on the bottom of the screen on the news, I thought 'Oh shit! How much worse can it get for the passengers' families?!'
Ukraine's prime minister has announced his resignation in protest of the disbanding of the ruling coalition in parliament following the withdrawal of several pro-European parties.
The Bbc appears to have missed this..
Not missed it, look the New York Times has reported it, so it's not being ignored in the West like you're trying to imply.
Alexander Borodai, PM of the Donetsk People's Republic has said (to CNN & BBC) that they were told by the OSCE representatives not to touch the bodies, hence why they were left in fields for days decomposing.
He would say that wouldn't he? I wouldn't believe a word he says. He is ironically a neo-nazi, something which opponents of the Kyiv government like to accuse them of being.
It is awful that they still looking for and still finding bodies after nine days. More needed to be done from day one of the crash. All parties should have done more. But egos stood in the way of a parting of the ways to allow the recovery of the victims on the same day. Instead bodies are being found over a week after the crash. God knows what state they are in after being left under the scorching ukrainian summer sun for over a week.
But wouldnt there have been some kind of evidence of where the plane had come from. Surely they would have known if the plane had took off from inside ukraine. Possibly by it still climbing. A plane flying over the UK would be in at its highest if it was a long haul flight. MH17 would probably have been at its cruising altitude. So that would have shown it wasnt a military aircraft and no threat
But wouldnt there have been some kind of evidence of where the plane had come from. Surely they would have known if the plane had took off from inside ukraine. Possibly by it still climbing. A plane flying over the UK would be in at its highest if it was a long haul flight. MH17 would probably have been at its cruising altitude. So that would have shown it wasnt a military aircraft and no threat
Ukraine military aircraft have flown at similar heights. But in any case, no authorities are seriously suggesting that the rebels intended to deliberately shoot down a passenger plane. It was obviously a mistake by incompetent people in charge of sophisticated weaponry.
But wouldnt there have been some kind of evidence of where the plane had come from. Surely they would have known if the plane had took off from inside ukraine. Possibly by it still climbing. A plane flying over the UK would be in at its highest if it was a long haul flight. MH17 would probably have been at its cruising altitude. So that would have shown it wasnt a military aircraft and no threat
Ukraine is actually a very large country, so a civilian plane would have reached cruising altitude before it reached that area, even if it had taken off from Kiev.
The British RT reporter Graham Phillips was dumped at the Polish border and banned from Ukraine for 3 years, after being repeatedly interrogated & threatened. Ukrainian forces having previously denied he was abducted by them:
Ukraine is actually a very large country, so a civilian plane would have reached cruising altitude before it reached that area, even if it had taken off from Kiev.
But it would have had to have been descending for some time in order to do anything threatening in rebel controlled territory... and it wasn't. And even the most basic kind of intelligence - eyeballs mark one - over the preceding few days would have told them that it almost certainly WAS a civilian airliner in transit.
If it was an 'accident', it was the worst kind of "who cares?" negligence, and that in itself can constitute a criminal act or war crime. No wonder they've been denying access and apparently messing with the evidence.
At over 30,000 feet, one wouldn't know what sort of plane it was.
They either identified the craft and fired, when nobody, even me who can just about differentiate 'big plane' and 'little plane' could mistake a passenger jet for a military plane or they shot at anything that was in the sky. Neither are good.
But it would have had to have been descending for some time in order to do anything threatening in rebel controlled territory... and it wasn't. And even the most basic kind of intelligence - eyeballs mark one - over the preceding few days would have told them that it almost certainly WAS a civilian airliner in transit.
If it was an 'accident', it was the worst kind of "who cares?" negligence, and that in itself can constitute a criminal act or war crime.
Indeed.
If it really had been a Ukrainian transport plane it's doubtful it would be flying so high in that area, as chances are it would have been coming in to land somewhere to supply the troops, so would have been lower.
But all the evidence so far still points to a catastrophic and tragic mistake by the rebels. I doubt very much they would deliberately be targeting civilian airliners, and indeed the phone calls/radio calls intercepted seem to suggest they thought it was a Ukrainian plane at first.
But all the evidence so far still points to a catastrophic and tragic mistake by the rebels. I doubt very much they would deliberately be targeting civilian airliners, and indeed the phone calls/radio calls intercepted seem to suggest they thought it was a Ukrainian plane at first.
I have never said anything else - it was probably a mistake - BUT a mistake arising from negligence can constitute a crime or war crime and that's why the rebels and their facilitators/suppliers/paymasters Russia are doing everything they can to cause delay and obfuscation, as the passage of time will make it increasingly difficult ever to pin down the perpetrators and get to the full facts.
I have never said anything else - it was probably a mistake - BUT a mistake arising from negligence can constitute a crime or war crime and that's why the rebels and their facilitators/suppliers/paymasters Russia are doing everything they can to cause delay and obfuscation, as the passage of time will make it increasingly difficult ever to pin down the perpetrators and get to the full facts.
However if as reported there were Ukrainian SU 25/27s flying near the path of the Boeing that changes things significantly.
I have never said anything else - it was probably a mistake - BUT a mistake arising from negligence can constitute a crime or war crime and that's why the rebels and their facilitators/suppliers/paymasters Russia are doing everything they can to cause delay and obfuscation, as the passage of time will make it increasingly difficult ever to pin down the perpetrators and get to the full facts.
I never said you did.
And I agree, and have said much the same throughout the thread.
I have never said anything else - it was probably a mistake - BUT a mistake arising from negligence can constitute a crime or war crime and that's why the rebels and their facilitators/suppliers/paymasters Russia are doing everything they can to cause delay and obfuscation, as the passage of time will make it increasingly difficult ever to pin down the perpetrators and get to the full facts.
d@ve......imo it was certainly not intentional as what would the pro-Russian activists have to gain by the shoot down of a civilian aircraft? Absolutely nothing......but everything to lose.
The aircraft was owned and operated by Malaysia so not even politically involved.
The majority of passengers on board were from the Netherlands. Once again, not even a country which could be seen as politically anti pro-Russia in the Ukraine problems.
However, if we are to talk about accountability over negligence and making it a war crime, then precisely the same must be levelled at the US in the shoot down of Iran Air. They too must be brought to justice. And worse still for the US, one of their own Naval Captains in the area at the same time spoke out against the behaviour of the Vincennes Captain in the week prior to the event.
That it was a civil aircraft operated by Iran and packed with almost 300 Iranians, proved even worse for the US. After all, politically they weren't then and still aren't now, exactly allies or even neutral.
Worth reading the link to keep reminding ourselves;
Comments
I agree about the hypocrisy but I seriously doubt it was murder. The only people who deliberately blow up civilians are the sort of people that would be claiming credit for the attack the second it happened and as no one has done so I think we can safely rule out a deliberate attack. Accidents happen and when they do they are tragic but they remain accidents and unless everyone who ever accidentally killed a civilian in war has to face a murder charge we can't really be calling these people murderers. Far more likely that they genuinely thought they were shooting down a Ukranian military transport but hit a passenger plane by mistake.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/ukraine-pm-resigns-amid-parliamentary-turmoil-2014724145321500842.html
Ukraine's prime minister has announced his resignation in protest of the disbanding of the ruling coalition in parliament following the withdrawal of several pro-European parties.
The Bbc appears to have missed this..
I thought that too! When I first read that on the bottom of the screen on the news, I thought 'Oh shit! How much worse can it get for the passengers' families?!'
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/world/europe/ukraine-parliament-takes-step-toward-elections.html?_r=1&referrer=
;-) ....
Doing detective work yourself - it was obviously hit nose first my a missile and not from behind.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/25/1406244171021_wps_7_A_piece_of_the_wreckage_i.jpg
Wow
Even if the plane survived that I'm guessing the crew wouldn't.
That picture does really bring home how unlikely it is that this plane was mistaken as a fighter.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704975/Malaysian-crash-investigators-bodies-parts-passenger-jet-MH17-WEEK-downed-Ukraine.html
At over 30,000 feet, one wouldn't know what sort of plane it was.
Ukraine military aircraft have flown at similar heights. But in any case, no authorities are seriously suggesting that the rebels intended to deliberately shoot down a passenger plane. It was obviously a mistake by incompetent people in charge of sophisticated weaponry.
Ukraine is actually a very large country, so a civilian plane would have reached cruising altitude before it reached that area, even if it had taken off from Kiev.
https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK
http://rt.com/news/175676-ukraine-deport-rt-contributor/
But it would have had to have been descending for some time in order to do anything threatening in rebel controlled territory... and it wasn't. And even the most basic kind of intelligence - eyeballs mark one - over the preceding few days would have told them that it almost certainly WAS a civilian airliner in transit.
If it was an 'accident', it was the worst kind of "who cares?" negligence, and that in itself can constitute a criminal act or war crime. No wonder they've been denying access and apparently messing with the evidence.
They either identified the craft and fired, when nobody, even me who can just about differentiate 'big plane' and 'little plane' could mistake a passenger jet for a military plane or they shot at anything that was in the sky. Neither are good.
Indeed.
If it really had been a Ukrainian transport plane it's doubtful it would be flying so high in that area, as chances are it would have been coming in to land somewhere to supply the troops, so would have been lower.
But all the evidence so far still points to a catastrophic and tragic mistake by the rebels. I doubt very much they would deliberately be targeting civilian airliners, and indeed the phone calls/radio calls intercepted seem to suggest they thought it was a Ukrainian plane at first.
I have never said anything else - it was probably a mistake - BUT a mistake arising from negligence can constitute a crime or war crime and that's why the rebels and their facilitators/suppliers/paymasters Russia are doing everything they can to cause delay and obfuscation, as the passage of time will make it increasingly difficult ever to pin down the perpetrators and get to the full facts.
I never said you did.
And I agree, and have said much the same throughout the thread.
The aircraft was owned and operated by Malaysia so not even politically involved.
The majority of passengers on board were from the Netherlands. Once again, not even a country which could be seen as politically anti pro-Russia in the Ukraine problems.
However, if we are to talk about accountability over negligence and making it a war crime, then precisely the same must be levelled at the US in the shoot down of Iran Air. They too must be brought to justice. And worse still for the US, one of their own Naval Captains in the area at the same time spoke out against the behaviour of the Vincennes Captain in the week prior to the event.
That it was a civil aircraft operated by Iran and packed with almost 300 Iranians, proved even worse for the US. After all, politically they weren't then and still aren't now, exactly allies or even neutral.
Worth reading the link to keep reminding ourselves;
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/24/everyone-seems-to-have-forgotten-the-time-the-u-s-shot-down-a-passenger-jet-killing-290-and-then-tried-to-cover-it-up/