I could go and google and answer for you if you like? You didn't ask me any questions about EU trade and growth. You just made assertions about the EU being anti-growth and at that point your credibility was shot. Come on admit it, no matter how successful the EU might be you'll never agree with it. This is about narrow nationalism not economics.
Look at Greece indeed. Let's see what happens.
It's not about nationalism in the slightest. That's the hilarious answer Europhiles always give. I love Europe. I just despise of the EU. And my points are not assertions. They are facts. They EU is the only world block that isn't growing. The EU's share of world trade is forcast to fall by 50% in the next 20 years. And as I said before it's at the beginning of being about to implode. So it probably won't be around in 20 years.
In the early to mid 19th century central Europe was undergoing a bout of nationalism thanks to increasingly prosperous German states. Major of these were Prussia and Austria.
It was agreed in 1834, amongst most of the states (not Austria) that greater national harmonisation could be achieved for the German speaking people if there existed a customs union.
This was known as the Zollverein. It had the effect of allowing Prussia to dominate a centralised economic union.
After some wars and more unification the Second Reich came to be and the Zollverein lasted until 1919.
This system has clouded German thinking since post WW2. They think that they can control an even wider area in a customs union and keep the peace.
However we Anglosphere inhabitants have seen the weaknesses of such a system and need to pull out without being scared into thinking it's the only way forward. It is an archaic system that is failing.
In the early to mid 19th century central Europe was undergoing a bout of nationalism thanks to increasingly prosperous German states. Major of these were Prussia and Austria.
It was agreed in 1834, amongst most of the states (not Austria) that greater national harmonisation could be achieved for the German speaking people if there existed a customs union.
This was known as the Zollverein. It had the effect of allowing Prussia to dominate a centralised economic union.
After some wars and more unification the Second Reich came to be and the Zollverein lasted until 1919.
This system has clouded German thinking since post WW2. They think that they can control an even wider area in a customs union and keep the peace.
However we Anglosphere inhabitants have seen the weaknesses of such a system and need to pull out without being scared into thinking it's the only way forward. It is an archaic system that is failing.
The problem is people views of the world like this poster above is completely out of date in the market and have been for 100's of years. The idea that each country trades separately with each other has long gone. The world is made up of trade blocks like the EU, USA, South American, African etc.
It is a global market place and single countries dont stand alone on their own making their own trade rules and agreements.
Oh oh what about iceland, Norway etc. First it is worth pointing the UK is not Norway or Iceland obvious yes but their economy is different to ours we are far more involved in global trade.
The second is these countries cannot ignore the EU. If you look at the iceland they have to follow and comply with all EU trade laws. They have to peg their currency to the Euro. They have to follow the lot of same directives as the EU but without any power or say in what goes on. Iceland is also in European economic area (EEA), the Schengen area, European free trade association (EFTA).
It is like being a member of club but having to sit outside on the steps when ever their is a meeting held.
the world is about global power as a part of the EU we are massive trade block 2nd largest in the world. Outside any trade block we would be tiny and lack the power to bargain with the trade blocks.
So when people say pull out of the EU in many respects it is not possible. We would end up like iceland have to fall in with the EU on many issue but having no right to vote on them.
There have always been trading blocks, and we would still have one even if we left the EU.
the EU has always been about creating a European superstate in the same way that the US exists, it's also too close to the original vision that Hitler had for the Third Reich for my liking, and frankly I don't care what anndra or whover says... my nationality is English, part of the British Isles! I am not "European", and I will never consider myself to be "European" as a nationality or an identity, South American people do not consider themselves to be South Americans, they're either Brazilians or Argentinians or Chileans, but never "South American"
the EU's supporters who believe that the EU superstate is a perfect vision for the future forget one simple thing.... it was created by a bunch of people who were born into families still shamed by the fact that their parents/uncles etc were involved in the mass murder of millions of people, and defeated by an allied power of a small island just off the French coast and some military superpower from across the world!
let's call a spade a spade here alright? Germany doesn't want the EU for anything other than Germany's own interests - it never has, and never will, consider another country's interests above their own (exactly like America's political view) and this is what people fear when they hear "nationalism"
there are two strains of thought - nationalism in the way that the Nazi party went and killed millions of Jews in WW2 (the bad kind!) and nationalism which is being proud of your country, proud of your heritage and proud of your roots (the good kind!)
ask any French or Spanish person if they are nationalistic, and they will say "Absolutely!"
how many wars have the UK had with Spain and France over the years? many (and we won most of them!) but they're not afraid to admit to being nationalistic, because they didn't commit genocide in the name of nationalism.
ask a German (or an Italian) the same question, and there's a moment of doubt before they answer.... if they say yes, they're immediately reminded of WW2 and their nation's involvement in the Holocaust, but they will look at the second view of being proud to be a German/Italian and proud of their country now (not then!) but this is the crux of the matter:
if the EU allows people to believe that nationalism is a good thing, to be proud of your country and proud of your nation's history, then why would anyone reasonably want to give up their nation, and give up their country's place in the world?
however if "nationalism" is always associated with what the Nazis did in WW2, then people who are afraid of that part of their nations history will always want to avoid it, out f shame and that's understandable... but when the loudest voices in the room are the from Germans, why else would the term "nationalism" be considered a bad thing???
in the UK, we weren't involved in that, we should be proud of our history and proud to be British, it's just a shame that many people today seem to view it as a bad thing, and that's because over the past 60 years, we've let groups like the BNP take on the term "nationalism" as a metaphor for their racism, and we should be tackling that view and bringing back some actual national pride, not blindly following the EU's view of what they think is good for everyone just because it suits the political gains for the most vocal people in the room
apologies for length, but had to get that off my chest as this thread has really annoyed me with this bullshit that we are all Europeans! we're bloody British, and we should be proud of that fact, not following this EU nonsense!!
the sooner we leave, the better off we'll be because British business is global, not introverted like the EU wants it to be (they're simply following the American model which is changing to a global stance as they can't continue any more without global trade!)
The problem is people views of the world like this poster above is completely out of date in the market and have been for 100's of years. The idea that each country trades separately with each other has long gone. The world is made up of trade blocks like the EU, USA, South American, African etc.
It is a global market place and single countries dont stand alone on their own making their own trade rules and agreements.
Oh oh what about iceland, Norway etc. First it is worth pointing the UK is not Norway or Iceland obvious yes but their economy is different to ours we are far more involved in global trade.
The second is these countries cannot ignore the EU. If you look at the iceland they have to follow and comply with all EU trade laws. They have to peg their currency to the Euro. They have to follow the lot of same directives as the EU but without any power or say in what goes on. Iceland is also in European economic area (EEA), the Schengen area, European free trade association (EFTA).
It is like being a member of club but having to sit outside on the steps when ever their is a meeting held.
the world is about global power as a part of the EU we are massive trade block 2nd largest in the world. Outside any trade block we would be tiny and lack the power to bargain with the trade blocks.
So when people say pull out of the EU in many respects it is not possible. We would end up like iceland have to fall in with the EU on many issue but having no right to vote on them.
You show a severe lack of understanding of A) the fact that the UK is a global trading organization and always has been. And that joining a trading block does not mean you must give up national sovereignty.
But was it common practice before then for UK employers to pay workers' holiday pay?
Some got it, some didn't.
I can remember working for no holiday pay and was pleased when the law changed.
When we have employers today who won't even guarantee people a set amount of hours, throwing around zero hour contracts, there would be zero chance of them paying holidays unless they had to.
We'd survive outwith the EU but it wouldn't be good for business. The main concern for me is over employment law and social security. If Britain is left to it's own devices it'll become more like America. I don't want to see that happen.
Claiming it is one thing - but it is absolutely groundless to aver that governing ourselves would make us 'like America'. If self governance is likely to do that, then there must be far more countries like America than I thought. In any event, I would be far happier to see the UK like America than I would to see them like Russia - and personally, I have no doubt whatsoever that the UK would thrive outside of the EU...........................as the majority of countries do - and a big bonus would be that we wouldn't have to borrow as much!!
There have always been trading blocks, and we would still have one even if we left the EU.
There is a huge difference to being a member of a trading boc, and having a second tier of governance, with imposed laws that have not been democratically established.
The former one provides mutual trade benefits without a loss of sovereignty.
And of course the EU is not Europe - ask the Russians, Serbians, Icelanders and Belorussians etc etc.
C'mon now, be fair - just give them a little more time, they are c ertainly doing their best to federalise the greater part of Europe.............but I think Russia will be a bit too much for them to swallow - even the smaller European part of Russia.
I can remember working for no holiday pay and was pleased when the law changed.
When we have employers today who won't even guarantee people a set amount of hours, throwing around zero hour contracts, there would be zero chance of them paying holidays unless they had to.
Is it impossible for a purely national government to pass legislation which forces employers to pay for holidays?
Well for a start it's been good for our business. The thing I like most of all though from being in the EU has been the way it has broken down borders. As many EU citizens can now come here as immigrants as want to. We too enjoy that same privilege and can travel all across Europe. I also feel it's made us more European. There must be many young Europeans like myself who have a sense of European identity that our parents generation might not understand. On top of the freedom of movement there is also the benefit to working people that being in the EU has ensured we can enjoy. When it comes to annual leave, maternity pay, equal, working hours etc there have been benefits that have come to the UK by being in the EU. Long may it continue!
You know you actually sound as if you believe that europhilic nonsense.
What good is it to have uncontrolled immigration? What good is it to act like a federalisation without having the necessary ability to govern it - such as a common economic policy - as can be seen now it is a recipe for disaster when a group of disparate economies, and disparate governance attempt to operate with a common currency, over which they have no control.
You wouldn't dream of surrendering control of who is entitled to enter your house so why should a government be less responsible.
Immigration per se is not a benefit to any country - whereas CONTROLLED immigration most certainly can be.
Comments
It's not about nationalism in the slightest. That's the hilarious answer Europhiles always give. I love Europe. I just despise of the EU. And my points are not assertions. They are facts. They EU is the only world block that isn't growing. The EU's share of world trade is forcast to fall by 50% in the next 20 years. And as I said before it's at the beginning of being about to implode. So it probably won't be around in 20 years.
No. Emigration only started after we joined. Didn't you realize?
Let me explain with some history.
In the early to mid 19th century central Europe was undergoing a bout of nationalism thanks to increasingly prosperous German states. Major of these were Prussia and Austria.
It was agreed in 1834, amongst most of the states (not Austria) that greater national harmonisation could be achieved for the German speaking people if there existed a customs union.
This was known as the Zollverein. It had the effect of allowing Prussia to dominate a centralised economic union.
After some wars and more unification the Second Reich came to be and the Zollverein lasted until 1919.
This system has clouded German thinking since post WW2. They think that they can control an even wider area in a customs union and keep the peace.
However we Anglosphere inhabitants have seen the weaknesses of such a system and need to pull out without being scared into thinking it's the only way forward. It is an archaic system that is failing.
Ssshhh. A sensible view isn't welcome on here.
There have always been trading blocks, and we would still have one even if we left the EU.
the EU's supporters who believe that the EU superstate is a perfect vision for the future forget one simple thing.... it was created by a bunch of people who were born into families still shamed by the fact that their parents/uncles etc were involved in the mass murder of millions of people, and defeated by an allied power of a small island just off the French coast and some military superpower from across the world!
let's call a spade a spade here alright? Germany doesn't want the EU for anything other than Germany's own interests - it never has, and never will, consider another country's interests above their own (exactly like America's political view) and this is what people fear when they hear "nationalism"
there are two strains of thought - nationalism in the way that the Nazi party went and killed millions of Jews in WW2 (the bad kind!) and nationalism which is being proud of your country, proud of your heritage and proud of your roots (the good kind!)
ask any French or Spanish person if they are nationalistic, and they will say "Absolutely!"
how many wars have the UK had with Spain and France over the years? many (and we won most of them!) but they're not afraid to admit to being nationalistic, because they didn't commit genocide in the name of nationalism.
ask a German (or an Italian) the same question, and there's a moment of doubt before they answer.... if they say yes, they're immediately reminded of WW2 and their nation's involvement in the Holocaust, but they will look at the second view of being proud to be a German/Italian and proud of their country now (not then!) but this is the crux of the matter:
if the EU allows people to believe that nationalism is a good thing, to be proud of your country and proud of your nation's history, then why would anyone reasonably want to give up their nation, and give up their country's place in the world?
however if "nationalism" is always associated with what the Nazis did in WW2, then people who are afraid of that part of their nations history will always want to avoid it, out f shame and that's understandable... but when the loudest voices in the room are the from Germans, why else would the term "nationalism" be considered a bad thing???
in the UK, we weren't involved in that, we should be proud of our history and proud to be British, it's just a shame that many people today seem to view it as a bad thing, and that's because over the past 60 years, we've let groups like the BNP take on the term "nationalism" as a metaphor for their racism, and we should be tackling that view and bringing back some actual national pride, not blindly following the EU's view of what they think is good for everyone just because it suits the political gains for the most vocal people in the room
the sooner we leave, the better off we'll be because British business is global, not introverted like the EU wants it to be (they're simply following the American model which is changing to a global stance as they can't continue any more without global trade!)
You show a severe lack of understanding of A) the fact that the UK is a global trading organization and always has been. And
It's very much true.
British workers weren't all guaranteed a paid holiday until European regulation made it so.
That is a fact.
But was it common practice before then for UK employers to pay workers' holiday pay?
Some got it, some didn't.
I can remember working for no holiday pay and was pleased when the law changed.
When we have employers today who won't even guarantee people a set amount of hours, throwing around zero hour contracts, there would be zero chance of them paying holidays unless they had to.
Claiming it is one thing - but it is absolutely groundless to aver that governing ourselves would make us 'like America'. If self governance is likely to do that, then there must be far more countries like America than I thought. In any event, I would be far happier to see the UK like America than I would to see them like Russia - and personally, I have no doubt whatsoever that the UK would thrive outside of the EU...........................as the majority of countries do - and a big bonus would be that we wouldn't have to borrow as much!!
There is a huge difference to being a member of a trading boc, and having a second tier of governance, with imposed laws that have not been democratically established.
The former one provides mutual trade benefits without a loss of sovereignty.
Is it impossible for a purely national government to pass legislation which forces employers to pay for holidays?
What good is it to have uncontrolled immigration? What good is it to act like a federalisation without having the necessary ability to govern it - such as a common economic policy - as can be seen now it is a recipe for disaster when a group of disparate economies, and disparate governance attempt to operate with a common currency, over which they have no control.
You wouldn't dream of surrendering control of who is entitled to enter your house so why should a government be less responsible.
Immigration per se is not a benefit to any country - whereas CONTROLLED immigration most certainly can be.