As teachers we can try and, often, the kids will remember when they are in class but revert to 'monffs' etc when out of the room.
I'm from Liverpool too and my mother-Irish-hated the Liverpool accent because it represented slovenly speech. We were taught to speak properly so that, now, I speak with a Liverpool accent but with clear diction. I am very proud of my Liverpool roots and would never try to lose my accent.
.......I bet you still have a "lorra lorra laughs" though.
I agree. If we want children to grow up with as many doors open to them as possible and to have equal access to all opportunities they need to have good diction in standard English. That is not to say they should be discouraged from acquiring and using a local accent or dialect with friends, family, in informal situations etc, they just need to be able to switch registers when the circumstances require it.
The ability for the general public beyond your own locality to understand you is critical to so many jobs. So the inability to communicate well in a widely recognised register creates an access problem akin to a physical disability.
I love that we have local varieties of English and for me these too are to be encouraged but not at the expense of being able and willing to communicate in a widely understood form of the language when the need arises.
I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with a regional accent but you have to be able to converse properly with people outside of your locality and modify your speech depending on the situation you are in. Speaking badly doesn't help anyone get a job either. If you can't communicate well you are limiting your chances in life.
This I find more curious; the need to deliberately misspell things to throw a straw man into the argument. "Is it 'cause I is black?" is enough to pick to pieces without resorting to txt spk. Ali G never spelled things wrong when he spoke.
Probably not if you intend to live where you are, your chances of getting a well paid job in the south will be negligible however. Dreadful Laandaarn accents are OK though. Don't get me started on the girls who pronounce "book" as "buerk".
Siblings with broad NI accents both teaching in posh Hertfordshire schools. And one of them a mumbler to boot. Accent didn't deter them.
That said I was working in France a few years ago teaching English to primary school children and though I had to adapt several words (eight), I was discouraged from hiding my accent as it would have sounded too forced but those teaching university students all had to use RP.
Hardly anyone nowadays speaks with an RP accent. Fourty years ago it was calculated that only 3% of the population did so, and numbers would have dropped considerably since then.
Unless you articulate in the manner of David Cameron, Boris Johnson or Rowan Williams, you are not an RP speaker.
It always puzzles me how many people seem to think that 'firty fousand pounds', 'free mumfs' and the like is acceptable pronunciation. If schools are playing their part, how do so many people slip through the net with these horrors?
I went to a grammar school in Liverpool, and I thank the gods of education every day that we had elocution lessons.
I think what is pathetic as well are kids actually knowing how to speak, yet dumbing down their diction etc to try and sound more "cool" or whatever word they want to use....
Why on earth would anyone want to sound more common?
What gets me is that, although in many places around the country, you'll know you won't hear good english being spoken, but when kids or anyone else for that matter, speak deliberately badly just for the sake of it, when it's obvious they know better, I think that is far worse....
Slightly off topic, but if i ever here people saying 'we was' it automatically makes me think that they are not the brightest.
Absolutely agree.
Most of these things drive me mad:
Pronouncing th sounds as f sounds. The Beast from The Chase does it and it's very jarring.
When people drop their t sounds in the middle of a word so little becomes li'ul.
Dropping the g from the end of ing words.
Sticking a k sound on the end of an ing word! such as sumfink or noffink.
It's nothing to do with regional accents, (speech difficulties aside) it's just laziness. I've even heard some teens speak as if the sounds coming from their noses because it's easier and takes less effort than to get your mouth to form a word. My kids are Northerners and I can imagine that, to some people, our accent might come across as unpleasant, but you would understand everything they said to you because, while they could never be described as "posh", on the whole they do pronounce things correctly. At home I might hear the odd " I dunno" and other similar laziness (and am also guilty of it from time to time) but when speaking to others it would become a clear "I don't know".
I think clear communication is very important, whether it's making yourself understood verbally or with the written word, through spelling, punctuation, and grammar.
If kids are taught correct pronunciation then, in my opinion, that will also help with their spelling.
Talking of communication, though, I am often accused of pedantry. Perhaps, for pendantry, we should read 'accuracy'.
For example, if someone asks a question in the negative most will reply as if the question was in the positive. I've started answering these sort of questions with "That is correct" because if I said "Yes" it would be completely misunderstood.
e.g "Do you not have a pen?"
"Yes" (I do not have a pen)/ "No" (I do not not have a pen)
In a similar vein I've had a few hospital appointments recently and when the secretaries (I assume) ring me up they ask "Can you confirm your date of birth?". The answer to which is "Yes" if I can and "No" if I can't.
However, they tend to get rather irate when I answer with "Yes, I can" instead of asking the correct question in the first place!
Pronouncing th sounds as f sounds. The Beast from The Chase does it and it's very jarring.
When people drop their t sounds in the middle of a word so little becomes li'ul.
Dropping the g from the end of ing words.
Sticking a k sound on the end of an ing word! such as sumfink or noffink.
It's nothing to do with regional accents, (speech difficulties aside) it's just laziness.
How is it lazy to add an extra consonant to an -ing word? Or to replace an 'ng' ending with an 'n'? These are just local dialect variations, not laziness.
I agree. If we want children to grow up with as many doors open to them as possible and to have equal access to all opportunities they need to have good diction in standard English. That is not to say they should be discouraged from acquiring and using a local accent or dialect with friends, family, in informal situations etc, they just need to be able to switch registers when the circumstances require it.
The ability for the general public beyond your own locality to understand you is critical to so many jobs. So the inability to communicate well in a widely recognised register creates an access problem akin to a physical disability.
I love that we have local varieties of English and for me these too are to be encouraged but not at the expense of being able and willing to communicate in a widely understood form of the language when the need arises.
Really well put. This is precisely what I was going to write and you've saved me a job.
If kids are taught correct pronunciation then, in my opinion, that will also help with their spelling.
Talking of communication, though, I am often accused of pedantry. Perhaps, for pendantry, we should read 'accuracy'.
For example, if someone asks a question in the negative most will reply as if the question was in the positive. I've started answering these sort of questions with "That is correct" because if I said "Yes" it would be completely misunderstood.
e.g "Do you not have a pen?"
"Yes" (I do not have a pen)/ "No" (I do not not have a pen)
In a similar vein I've had a few hospital appointments recently and when the secretaries (I assume) ring me up they ask "Can you confirm your date of birth?". The answer to which is "Yes" if I can and "No" if I can't.
However, they tend to get rather irate when I answer with "Yes, I can" instead of asking the correct question in the first place!
A friend of mine is a hospital secretary and I know how busy they are, so whilst you feel smug and superior because of your answer they probably call you something far more Anglo-Saxon when they put the phone down.....
How is it lazy to add an extra consonant to an -ing word? Or to replace an 'ng' ending with an 'n'? These are just local dialect variations, not laziness.
Okay, I'll give you the k thing, but dropping the g takes (slightly) less effort than it does to include it. People who drop the g part are generally able to say it properly, they just can't be bothered,
Love this thread. I have three accents, my well spoken posh, with a hint of common, my Hampshire accent and, since living up north for 10 years, my acquired northern accent. Northerners don't hear it but they all hear it when I go home.
I think diction is very important, but real accents need to be maintained imo
Okay, I'll give you the k thing, but dropping the g takes (slightly) less effort than it does to include it. People who drop the g part are generally able to say it properly, they just can't be bothered,
No, they drop the "g" because that's what their regional dialect sounds like. Spoken language is not rigid with strict rules; it's fluid and is constantly changing. In many regional dialects the "g" is dropped. Just because Southern English has been arbitrarily chosen as the "standard dialect" doesn't mean all other dialects are wrong.
Of course, if people are speaking in a situation which requires them to speak closer to standard English then they'll add the "g's" back on, but they have no reason to do so when talking to people in their community.
If kids are taught correct pronunciation then, in my opinion, that will also help with their spelling.
Talking of communication, though, I am often accused of pedantry. Perhaps, for pendantry, we should read 'accuracy'.
For example, if someone asks a question in the negative most will reply as if the question was in the positive. I've started answering these sort of questions with "That is correct" because if I said "Yes" it would be completely misunderstood.
e.g "Do you not have a pen?"
"Yes" (I do not have a pen)/ "No" (I do not not have a pen)
In a similar vein I've had a few hospital appointments recently and when the secretaries (I assume) ring me up they ask "Can you confirm your date of birth?". The answer to which is "Yes" if I can and "No" if I can't.
However, they tend to get rather irate when I answer with "Yes, I can" instead of asking the correct question in the first place!
Okay, I'll give you the k thing, but dropping the g takes (slightly) less effort than it does to include it. People who drop the g part are generally able to say it properly, they just can't be bothered,
I know it doesn't look like it from the spelling, but people don't drop the G from NG*, they replace the NG sound with an N. It's not a case of 'not being bothered'.
*NG is not N plus G, it's a separate sound altogether, written as [ŋ] in the International Phonetic Alphabet.
Personally, I have a reasonably soft Belfast accent. I go to Uni down in Oxford where everyone seems to speak RP, but even though I still speak in my native Belfast accent, no-one seems to have any difficulty understanding me. They'll notice I'll pronounce certain vowel sounds differently to them and I retain the "r" in all positions (ie. my accent is rhotic), but other than that I can speak clearly enough for people to understand me well (provided I don't talk too fast).
I don't think there's any need to get rid of your accent provided you can pronounce words clearly in your accent when required. I'm quite fond of my accent because it's not one you hear often when in England and I have no desire to get rid of it, but obviously even if you retain your accent, you'll still have to discard elements of your regional dialect.
I can't say things like "Aye, I saw your man off the TV, so I did" or "It's absolutely baltic" because that would probably confuse people in England.
Comments
.......I bet you still have a "lorra lorra laughs" though.
I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with a regional accent but you have to be able to converse properly with people outside of your locality and modify your speech depending on the situation you are in. Speaking badly doesn't help anyone get a job either. If you can't communicate well you are limiting your chances in life.
This I find more curious; the need to deliberately misspell things to throw a straw man into the argument. "Is it 'cause I is black?" is enough to pick to pieces without resorting to txt spk. Ali G never spelled things wrong when he spoke.
Writing operates in a different medium to speaking. Illiterate people can often speak fluently.
Siblings with broad NI accents both teaching in posh Hertfordshire schools. And one of them a mumbler to boot. Accent didn't deter them.
That said I was working in France a few years ago teaching English to primary school children and though I had to adapt several words (eight), I was discouraged from hiding my accent as it would have sounded too forced but those teaching university students all had to use RP.
Unless you articulate in the manner of David Cameron, Boris Johnson or Rowan Williams, you are not an RP speaker.
10/10 !.......I'm surprised no one picked that up sooner.
....obervation is also very importunt.
I think what is pathetic as well are kids actually knowing how to speak, yet dumbing down their diction etc to try and sound more "cool" or whatever word they want to use....
Why on earth would anyone want to sound more common?
What gets me is that, although in many places around the country, you'll know you won't hear good english being spoken, but when kids or anyone else for that matter, speak deliberately badly just for the sake of it, when it's obvious they know better, I think that is far worse....
Absolutely agree.
Most of these things drive me mad:
Pronouncing th sounds as f sounds. The Beast from The Chase does it and it's very jarring.
When people drop their t sounds in the middle of a word so little becomes li'ul.
Dropping the g from the end of ing words.
Sticking a k sound on the end of an ing word! such as sumfink or noffink.
It's nothing to do with regional accents, (speech difficulties aside) it's just laziness. I've even heard some teens speak as if the sounds coming from their noses because it's easier and takes less effort than to get your mouth to form a word. My kids are Northerners and I can imagine that, to some people, our accent might come across as unpleasant, but you would understand everything they said to you because, while they could never be described as "posh", on the whole they do pronounce things correctly. At home I might hear the odd " I dunno" and other similar laziness (and am also guilty of it from time to time) but when speaking to others it would become a clear "I don't know".
I think clear communication is very important, whether it's making yourself understood verbally or with the written word, through spelling, punctuation, and grammar.
If kids are taught correct pronunciation then, in my opinion, that will also help with their spelling.
Talking of communication, though, I am often accused of pedantry. Perhaps, for pendantry, we should read 'accuracy'.
For example, if someone asks a question in the negative most will reply as if the question was in the positive. I've started answering these sort of questions with "That is correct" because if I said "Yes" it would be completely misunderstood.
e.g "Do you not have a pen?"
"Yes" (I do not have a pen)/ "No" (I do not not have a pen)
In a similar vein I've had a few hospital appointments recently and when the secretaries (I assume) ring me up they ask "Can you confirm your date of birth?". The answer to which is "Yes" if I can and "No" if I can't.
However, they tend to get rather irate when I answer with "Yes, I can" instead of asking the correct question in the first place!
How is it lazy to add an extra consonant to an -ing word? Or to replace an 'ng' ending with an 'n'? These are just local dialect variations, not laziness.
Really well put. This is precisely what I was going to write and you've saved me a job.
A friend of mine is a hospital secretary and I know how busy they are, so whilst you feel smug and superior because of your answer they probably call you something far more Anglo-Saxon when they put the phone down.....
Okay, I'll give you the k thing, but dropping the g takes (slightly) less effort than it does to include it. People who drop the g part are generally able to say it properly, they just can't be bothered,
I think diction is very important, but real accents need to be maintained imo
No, they drop the "g" because that's what their regional dialect sounds like. Spoken language is not rigid with strict rules; it's fluid and is constantly changing. In many regional dialects the "g" is dropped. Just because Southern English has been arbitrarily chosen as the "standard dialect" doesn't mean all other dialects are wrong.
Of course, if people are speaking in a situation which requires them to speak closer to standard English then they'll add the "g's" back on, but they have no reason to do so when talking to people in their community.
Hieronymus you're talking Bosch..
I know it doesn't look like it from the spelling, but people don't drop the G from NG*, they replace the NG sound with an N. It's not a case of 'not being bothered'.
*NG is not N plus G, it's a separate sound altogether, written as [ŋ] in the International Phonetic Alphabet.
I don't think there's any need to get rid of your accent provided you can pronounce words clearly in your accent when required. I'm quite fond of my accent because it's not one you hear often when in England and I have no desire to get rid of it, but obviously even if you retain your accent, you'll still have to discard elements of your regional dialect.
I can't say things like "Aye, I saw your man off the TV, so I did" or "It's absolutely baltic" because that would probably confuse people in England.