Except it's not utter nonsense, nor 'whataboutery' in the strictest sense. This is logic, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe you aren't aware of the tremendous cruelty that occurs in factory farming processes - for both meat and animal products such as dairy/eggs, but I can assure you it is there.
You can dismiss my argument all you like, but logic (and common-bleedin'-sense) should tell you that yours is a steaming pile of garbage when all types of animal are subject to cruelty via the incumbent production system; whether they're slaughtered by halal ritual or not.
It has nothing to do with the law - British, and EU law permits cruel factory-farming practices that occur. We're not talking about illegal behaviour here, we're talking about normal, day-to-day business.
If you eat meat and like to make yourself feel better by somehow thinking that the animal which died for your meal suffered no cruelty then go right ahead - attempt to appease your conscience and make yourself feel better, but ultimately, you are lying to yourself.
So yes, the animal welfare argument, when it comes to halal slaughter, is completely and utterly bogus.
The only way to make the point you're making and maintain your credibility, as aforementioned is to be vegan - or become a 'strict vegetarian' who avoids eating meat/flesh and purchases their animal products themselves from local free-range farms where you can actually see the cows being milked and the eggs being laid.
I'm not even a vegan or vegetarian, but at least I don't lie to myself about where my dinner has come from to make myself feel better. It makes me sad that animals suffer as part of the factory-farmed food-chain, and one day I may become vegan, but until then at least I'll iterate the facts on the matter and not be an ignorant fool.
Eeeeee whatabout this eeeeee whatabout that eeee slurperdurp blah blah blah........
I never encounter this whataboutery when discussing other animal welfare issues on DS threads, such as fox hunting or badger culling.
Only when the usual apologists are trying to defend the indefensible does such crap come out.
If animal welfare laws aren't up to scratch, then they should be further legislation to protect animals, not a free for all to satisfy religious bloodlust.
Farm animals should be reared as humanely as is possible, and then slaughtered quickly and as painlessly as possible.
In my lifetime, I have seen great leaps forward in the ethical treatment of farm animals, we were moving in the right direction.
Now it seems we are moving back in time...........
Oh well, seems most have missed the point.
When I was living in Turkey I once over heard an English woman from "London" (I know this because I spoke to her) complaining that the potatoes were all covered in soil/dirt.
Im sure she thought potatoes are grown in the plastic bags that she normally buys them from at her chosen UK supermarket.
You couldn't make this stuff up. Why are so many people just pig ignorant. When I was a young boy, the local farmer used to grow potatoes and plough a furrow at a time in order to harvest when the time came. I used to give a helping hand and you had to rummage around in the ground in order to make sure you harvested all the teddies (that's slang for potato in Devon). They were often covered in soil, so you got most of it off, put them in the basket and then in the trailer for transport to the barn cellar.
So needless to say, I've eaten a fair few home grown potatoes, rather then the mass produced sanitised stuff you get in the shops, plus fish, rabbits, pheasants, pigeons, free range eggs and just about every fruit and vegetable you can name, including wild mushrooms, tomatoes, hazelnuts, apples, plums, asparagus, raspberries, strawberries, loganberries and sweetcorn (maize). All of it was all fresh/locally grown to be eaten within hours.
Happy days. I lived next door to a farm when I was a kid.
Except it's not utter nonsense, nor 'whataboutery' in the strictest sense. This is logic, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe you aren't aware of the tremendous cruelty that occurs in factory farming processes - for both meat and animal products such as dairy/eggs, but I can assure you it is there.
You can dismiss my argument all you like, but logic (and common-bleedin'-sense) should tell you that yours is a steaming pile of garbage when all types of animal are subject to cruelty via the incumbent production system; whether they're slaughtered by halal ritual or not.
It has nothing to do with the law - British, and EU law permits cruel factory-farming practices that occur. We're not talking about illegal behaviour here, we're talking about normal, day-to-day business.
If you eat meat and like to make yourself feel better by somehow thinking that the animal which died for your meal suffered no cruelty then go right ahead - attempt to appease your conscience and make yourself feel better, but ultimately, you are lying to yourself.
So yes, the animal welfare argument, when it comes to halal slaughter, is completely and utterly bogus.
The only way to make the point you're making and maintain your credibility, as aforementioned is to be vegan - or become a 'strict vegetarian' who avoids eating meat/flesh and purchases their animal products themselves from local free-range farms where you can actually see the cows being milked and the eggs being laid.
I'm not even a vegan or vegetarian, but at least I don't lie to myself about where my dinner has come from to make myself feel better. It makes me sad that animals suffer as part of the factory-farmed food-chain, and one day I may become vegan, but until then at least I'll iterate the facts on the matter and not be an ignorant fool.
I like everybody else, want animal welfare standards to be as good as possible, but I don't want to eat Halal or Kosher meat because it is killed via a religious ritual and I'm a staunch atheist, so I disagree with both methods on those grounds. So, bearing that in mind, why am I eating Halal or Kosher meat without being told I am doing so in many cases. Surely I have the right to know whether I am eating either, but current legislation is not in place so I can be informed.
So, I don't want to eat 'slit throat' meat, Halal or Kosher because it's supporting religion which I hate in all its forms, and I don't often use the word hate, and I want nothing to do with it. Simple as that.
The other thing is that all animals normally have to be pre-stunned before slaughter legally, but as I have said above, some religious groups have somehow managed to secure an opt out. This should be rescinded immediately and anybody refusing to do so should be heavily fined and imprisoned IMO.
As an aside, I used to have to go church at the end of each year when I was at secondary school. You didn't get a choice, unless you skipped school/played truant. Nowadays, if I were at that age I'd refuse to go and if the school declined my request, I'd try and sue them for infringing my human rights.
The vast majority of people don't care, so butchers and food businesses sell halal meat because most people - Muslim and non-Muslim will happily buy it. If it was non-halal, they'd lose their Muslim customers.
Whilst there are large numbers of people, such as yourself, who don't care about eating meat associated with a barbaric mediaeval culture, there are plenty who do.
I would suspect that those who do care, would outnumber the small proportion of the population of whom halal is a necessity.
I cannot believe that the country is changing in the ways I'm seeing at the moment.
I resent the fact that non muslims even have to be bothered by such things as "halal" meat! It all seems so bloody alien to me.
I can't remember any other religious minority group seemingly to be "encouraging" their traditions and ways of life on to the majority.
Doubtless there'll be posters disagreeing with me, but if the "halal" issue isn't the most blinding obvious example, I don't know what it is....!
You won't get any arguments from me. People that are non Muslim and do not believe in the religion are eating Halal meat without their knowledge or consent, whether they want to or not and this needs to stop.
It's the same type of thing if food manufacturers stopped labelling their products with allergen ingredients. Yes, eating Halal or Kosher meat won't kill me or make me ill in most cases, but I should be given the choice via food labelling whether I want to eat it or not.
I resent the fact that non muslims even have to be bothered by such things as "halal" meat! It all seems so bloody alien to me.
If people require something which isn't considered 'as standard', such as halal meat, they should have to actively seek it out. Of course, that shouldn't be too difficult if food is properly labelled.
What shouldn't happen, is that people who don't want this 'non-standard' product, should have to actively avoid it. Which is what is happening.
Whilst there are large numbers of people, such as yourself, who don't care about eating meat associated with a barbaric mediaeval culture, there are plenty who do.
I would suspect that those who do care, would outnumber the small proportion of the population of whom halal is a necessity.
Exactly.
What I don't understand is that - currently - the muslim population is a small one compared to white english/british. Although all the posters that keep saying that it makes "good business sense" to sell halal meat, in that case how would that be logical considering that their custom isn't in the majority!
Posters saying "i don't care eating halal meat"...........that really isn't the point though. The point is, why are we or why would we be eating halal meat now?.
Have we ever eaten halal meat years ago? I don't think so.
If people require something which isn't considered 'as standard', such as halal meat, they should have to actively seek it out. Of course, that shouldn't be too difficult if food is properly labelled.
What shouldn't happen, is that people who don't want this 'non-standard' product, should have to actively avoid it. Which is what is happening.
Exactly. Again!
This is what makes me annoyed. Its like halal meat will now become the "default" meat option as opposed to the standard that we've all been used to.
I fear though that now normal english people who wouldn't have the foggiest about Islam, Allah and what not, are now going to be resigned to the fact that the meat they're eating is killed by a religious barbaric method that has nothing to do with anyone apart from the people who believe in such things!
You won't get any arguments from me. People that are non Muslim and do not believe in the religion are eating Halal meat without their knowledge or consent, whether they want to or not and this needs to stop.
It's the same type of thing if food manufacturers stopped labelling their products with allergen ingredients. Yes, eating Halal or Kosher meat won't kill me or make me ill in most cases, but I should be given the choice via food labelling whether I want to eat it or not.
I keep getting you mixed up with JJWales! :)
Imagine you're in a restaurant and the waitress says "oh, the meat I'm about to serve you was actually killed by the method instructed by Allah"!!
I fail to see how this wouldn't seem ridiculous to a lot of posters on this forum.....
I think I'd just look back at the waitress and say "who the **** is Allah?" :D
Imagine you're in a restaurant and the waitress says "oh, the meat I'm about to serve you was actually killed by the method instructed by Allah"!!
I fail to see how this wouldn't seem ridiculous to a lot of posters on this forum.....
I think I'd just look back at the waitress and say "who the **** is Allah?" :D
I wouldn't eat it.
Imagine an abattoir in which a Catholic priest wandered around the animal stalls swinging an incense burner in one hand and reciting from a bible in the other as the livestock is killed. We would rightly wonder what sort of bizarre alternative reality we'd stumbled upon.
Having the warblings of an Islamic prayer blaring out from speakers while animals are slaughtered is no different. There is a place for such irrational drivel and it's nowhere near Europe and it's nowhere near my plate.
And for the Muslim community who are forbideen not too
I meant non-halal. Halal is already labelled. A lot of meat which is halal maybe getting into restaurants/supermarkets, but isn't labelled as such, so Sikhs maybe eating it unknowingly.
Imagine an abattoir in which a Catholic priest wandered around the animal stalls swinging an incense burner in one hand and reciting from a bible in the other as the livestock is killed. We would rightly wonder what sort of bizarre alternative reality we'd stumbled upon.
Having the warblings of an Islamic prayer blaring out from speakers while animals are slaughtered is no different. There is a place for such irrational drivel and it's nowhere near Europe and it's nowhere near my plate.
BIB - Brilliantly worded....:)
I just don't know the two have to be mixed up. I remember years ago, there were halal only butchers that catered for only muslim customers. Why change it? It would negate the need for strict labelling etc.
I just don't know the two have to be mixed up. I remember years ago, there were halal only butchers that catered for only muslim customers. Why change it? It would negate the need for strict labelling etc.
Money. It's cheaper to use one slaughter method, then label a proportion of the meat for the Muslim market and have the rest be sold to everyone else, with the assumption that 'everyone else' won't mind or care. And this probably worked well enough up to now. However, given enough publicity, 'everyone else' is becoming aware of what they're eating and some do indeed mind and care. To be honest, I don't think things can remain as they are, so hopefully there will be changes sooner or later, even if only when it comes to labeling.
Personally, I'd like to see the legal loophole closed too, though, as it's always struck me as incredibly stupid to legislate for animal welfare and then allow exemptions on religious grounds. I don't have the words to adequately describe how idiotic I find this.
So as far as I'm concerned both should happen - the legal loophole should be closed and we should have mandatory labeling so that those who want to avoid can easily do so. I'd be very interested to see if/how shopping habits would change.
Virtually all killing of animals in slaughter houses is cruel and barbaric. So called 'humane' slaughter being a myth. Many of us see halal as an additional tier of cruelty needlessly imposed on animals simply to appease an ignorant medieval religion foreign to our shores, and for which the UK govt and the RSPCA should be ashamed of in granting their approving and support.
I meant non-halal. Halal is already labelled. A lot of meat which is halal maybe getting into restaurants/supermarkets, but isn't labelled as such, so Sikhs maybe eating it unknowingly.
And others that don't want to. One of those people being me.
Money. It's cheaper to use one slaughter method, then label a proportion of the meat for the Muslim market and have the rest be sold to everyone else, with the assumption that 'everyone else' won't mind or care. And this probably worked well enough up to now. However, given enough publicity, 'everyone else' is becoming aware of what they're eating and some do indeed mind and care. To be honest, I don't think things can remain as they are, so hopefully there will be changes sooner or later, even if only when it comes to labeling.
Personally, I'd like to see the legal loophole closed too, though, as it's always struck me as incredibly stupid to legislate for animal welfare and then allow exemptions on religious grounds. I don't have the words to adequately describe how idiotic I find this.
So as far as I'm concerned both should happen - the legal loophole should be closed and we should have mandatory labeling so that those who want to avoid can easily do so. I'd be very interested to see if/how shopping habits would change.
Comments
Eeeeee whatabout this eeeeee whatabout that eeee slurperdurp blah blah blah........
I never encounter this whataboutery when discussing other animal welfare issues on DS threads, such as fox hunting or badger culling.
Only when the usual apologists are trying to defend the indefensible does such crap come out.
If animal welfare laws aren't up to scratch, then they should be further legislation to protect animals, not a free for all to satisfy religious bloodlust.
Farm animals should be reared as humanely as is possible, and then slaughtered quickly and as painlessly as possible.
In my lifetime, I have seen great leaps forward in the ethical treatment of farm animals, we were moving in the right direction.
Now it seems we are moving back in time...........
You couldn't make this stuff up. Why are so many people just pig ignorant. When I was a young boy, the local farmer used to grow potatoes and plough a furrow at a time in order to harvest when the time came. I used to give a helping hand and you had to rummage around in the ground in order to make sure you harvested all the teddies (that's slang for potato in Devon). They were often covered in soil, so you got most of it off, put them in the basket and then in the trailer for transport to the barn cellar.
So needless to say, I've eaten a fair few home grown potatoes, rather then the mass produced sanitised stuff you get in the shops, plus fish, rabbits, pheasants, pigeons, free range eggs and just about every fruit and vegetable you can name, including wild mushrooms, tomatoes, hazelnuts, apples, plums, asparagus, raspberries, strawberries, loganberries and sweetcorn (maize). All of it was all fresh/locally grown to be eaten within hours.
Happy days. I lived next door to a farm when I was a kid.
A bit off topic, but there you go.
I like everybody else, want animal welfare standards to be as good as possible, but I don't want to eat Halal or Kosher meat because it is killed via a religious ritual and I'm a staunch atheist, so I disagree with both methods on those grounds. So, bearing that in mind, why am I eating Halal or Kosher meat without being told I am doing so in many cases. Surely I have the right to know whether I am eating either, but current legislation is not in place so I can be informed.
So, I don't want to eat 'slit throat' meat, Halal or Kosher because it's supporting religion which I hate in all its forms, and I don't often use the word hate, and I want nothing to do with it. Simple as that.
The other thing is that all animals normally have to be pre-stunned before slaughter legally, but as I have said above, some religious groups have somehow managed to secure an opt out. This should be rescinded immediately and anybody refusing to do so should be heavily fined and imprisoned IMO.
As an aside, I used to have to go church at the end of each year when I was at secondary school. You didn't get a choice, unless you skipped school/played truant. Nowadays, if I were at that age I'd refuse to go and if the school declined my request, I'd try and sue them for infringing my human rights.
I prefer my food to listen to some house or disco prior to slaughter.
I would suspect that those who do care, would outnumber the small proportion of the population of whom halal is a necessity.
Same destination, different journey.
I cannot believe that the country is changing in the ways I'm seeing at the moment.
I resent the fact that non muslims even have to be bothered by such things as "halal" meat! It all seems so bloody alien to me.
I can't remember any other religious minority group seemingly to be "encouraging" their traditions and ways of life on to the majority.
Doubtless there'll be posters disagreeing with me, but if the "halal" issue isn't the most blinding obvious example, I don't know what it is....!
You won't get any arguments from me. People that are non Muslim and do not believe in the religion are eating Halal meat without their knowledge or consent, whether they want to or not and this needs to stop.
It's the same type of thing if food manufacturers stopped labelling their products with allergen ingredients. Yes, eating Halal or Kosher meat won't kill me or make me ill in most cases, but I should be given the choice via food labelling whether I want to eat it or not.
What shouldn't happen, is that people who don't want this 'non-standard' product, should have to actively avoid it. Which is what is happening.
Exactly.
What I don't understand is that - currently - the muslim population is a small one compared to white english/british. Although all the posters that keep saying that it makes "good business sense" to sell halal meat, in that case how would that be logical considering that their custom isn't in the majority!
Posters saying "i don't care eating halal meat"...........that really isn't the point though. The point is, why are we or why would we be eating halal meat now?.
Have we ever eaten halal meat years ago? I don't think so.
Exactly. Again!
This is what makes me annoyed. Its like halal meat will now become the "default" meat option as opposed to the standard that we've all been used to.
I fear though that now normal english people who wouldn't have the foggiest about Islam, Allah and what not, are now going to be resigned to the fact that the meat they're eating is killed by a religious barbaric method that has nothing to do with anyone apart from the people who believe in such things!
Imagine you're in a restaurant and the waitress says "oh, the meat I'm about to serve you was actually killed by the method instructed by Allah"!!
I fail to see how this wouldn't seem ridiculous to a lot of posters on this forum.....
I think I'd just look back at the waitress and say "who the **** is Allah?"
Children of a lesser God, apparently.
Let them eat vegetables.............
I was hoping my user name is fairly unique, but there are a fair few posters on DS with similar user names.
I wouldn't eat it.
Imagine an abattoir in which a Catholic priest wandered around the animal stalls swinging an incense burner in one hand and reciting from a bible in the other as the livestock is killed. We would rightly wonder what sort of bizarre alternative reality we'd stumbled upon.
Having the warblings of an Islamic prayer blaring out from speakers while animals are slaughtered is no different. There is a place for such irrational drivel and it's nowhere near Europe and it's nowhere near my plate.
And for the Muslim community who are forbideen not too
I meant non-halal. Halal is already labelled. A lot of meat which is halal maybe getting into restaurants/supermarkets, but isn't labelled as such, so Sikhs maybe eating it unknowingly.
BIB - Brilliantly worded....:)
I just don't know the two have to be mixed up. I remember years ago, there were halal only butchers that catered for only muslim customers. Why change it? It would negate the need for strict labelling etc.
Money. It's cheaper to use one slaughter method, then label a proportion of the meat for the Muslim market and have the rest be sold to everyone else, with the assumption that 'everyone else' won't mind or care. And this probably worked well enough up to now. However, given enough publicity, 'everyone else' is becoming aware of what they're eating and some do indeed mind and care. To be honest, I don't think things can remain as they are, so hopefully there will be changes sooner or later, even if only when it comes to labeling.
Personally, I'd like to see the legal loophole closed too, though, as it's always struck me as incredibly stupid to legislate for animal welfare and then allow exemptions on religious grounds. I don't have the words to adequately describe how idiotic I find this.
So as far as I'm concerned both should happen - the legal loophole should be closed and we should have mandatory labeling so that those who want to avoid can easily do so. I'd be very interested to see if/how shopping habits would change.
And others that don't want to. One of those people being me.
Seriously?
Same meat, you don't respect differing principles?
This.
I think you've missed the point here on a number of levels.