As a British National Party supporter Benns left wing politics in general are as distant from me as the stars are from Earth, but in regards to his views on the then EEC I find common ground with him, as he saw what it would become as did I, and I like Nick Griffin's Nationalistic view I admire Benns courage of his left wing principals, as he saw things from the lefts perspective, and didn't change his views that much, anyway I wish him well, and hope his spell in hospital isn't long.
Mainly because there's a whole whelter of politicians who are happy enough to say they believe in anything to get elected, whilst quite often doing something quite different.
It depends on the beliefs and how you put them into practice.
We're talking about political beliefs, not blind religious fervour here.
yes but that means by some metric or another you are performing an analysis of someone's beliefs before you give them credit for having the courage to steadfastly stick to them.
No concorde was not a commercial disaster the B/A one actually made cash.
After posting large losses on their Concorde flights in the early 1980s, British Airways paid a flat sum of £16.5 million in 1984 to the UK government to buy their Concordes outright. After doing a market survey, and discovering that their target customers thought that Concorde was more expensive than it actually was, BA progressively raised prices to match. It seems extremely likely that BA then ran Concorde at a handsome profit probably unlike their French counterparts. Although BA refused to open the accounts, it has been reported to be up to £30-£50 million per year and a total profit of £1.75 billion on costs of £1 billion.
The success of one was because it became iconic but as a commercial venture from the manufacturing angle, it was a dismal failure that never recouped the investment by Britain and France.
A Very prestigious project for the UK to have taken part in probably one of the UKs last great achievements.
I repeat, it was a commercial disaster, nobody wanted to buy it, they should have called it the Titanic. It was also an extremely noisy plane and that probably had something to do with its failure to sell.
My point was that Tony Benn helped rescue it when the treasury after already having spent millions wanted to cancel it.
In the speech by Benn I referred to in my previous post, without provocation, he claimed he would have cancelled Concorde had it not been for Britain still having to pay their share of the investment because they had signed the agreement with France. At the end of his speech, I suggested that France may have dropped the whole thing had Britain pulled out or that if they found another partner, whether we would still have to pay, other than a re-arrangement "fee", much less than staying in. He said he didn't think that would be the case and that France would demand full payment.
We went into the Concorde project under a failing Conservative government at a time when we were bust, exacly like we're looking at the high speed train project now. Concorde was as much, if not more, a political project as it was a commercial project and Tony Benn was playing politics. Of course, it was easy for him to condemn Concorde in 1972, when he knew full well that he had presided over a substantial commercial failure.
He made the speech in a school hall whilst supporting a by-election Labour candidate.
As a British National Party supporter Benns left wing politics in general are as distant from me as the stars are from Earth, but in regards to his views on the then EEC I find common ground with him, as he saw what it would become as did I, and I like Nick Griffin's Nationalistic view I admire Benns courage of his left wing principals, as he saw things from the lefts perspective, and didn't change his views that much, anyway I wish him well, and hope his spell in hospital isn't long.
Benn wasn't always a way out leftie by comparison with the rest of the Labour Party, he changed when he thought he saw an advantage of playing outside left.
Interesting. Benn was one of the fanatically pro-Comprehensive Labourites who sent their children to Holland Park School which was then a trendy hallmark of the perfect comprehensive. He said later in an interview that he thought that he had had a far better education than his children so the fact that his grandson is not in a comprehensive is illuminating.
He also tried to get the details of his own education deleted from Who's Who.
Benn wasn't always a way out leftie by comparison with the rest of the Labour Party, he changed when he thought he saw an advantage of playing outside left.
Or....he realised that the centre right had nothing to offer him. If he wanted power, he could have easily kept quiet and taken the easy route.
Interesting. Benn was one of the fanatically pro-Comprehensive Labourites who sent their children to Holland Park School which was then a trendy hallmark of the perfect comprehensive. He said later in an interview that he thought that he had had a far better education than his children so the fact that his grandson is not in a comprehensive is illuminating.
He also tried to get the details of his own education deleted from Who's Who.
How is Tony Benn responsible for the education of his grandson ? Hilary and Stephen are both considerably to the right of their father politically (and unashamedly so), unlike Melissa. The fact he loves them all regardless makes him all the more of a rounded person.
Benn wasn't always a way out leftie by comparison with the rest of the Labour Party, he changed when he thought he saw an advantage of playing outside left.
You mean he saw that it would be advantageous to the British people in having more Socialist policies adopted?
Interesting. Benn was one of the fanatically pro-Comprehensive Labourites who sent their children to Holland Park School which was then a trendy hallmark of the perfect comprehensive. He said later in an interview that he thought that he had had a far better education than his children so the fact that his grandson is not in a comprehensive is illuminating.
He also tried to get the details of his own education deleted from Who's Who.
He said later in an interview that he thought that he had had a far better education than his children so the fact that his grandson is not in a comprehensive is illuminating.
Might be something to do with the fact he's not the legal guardian of his grandson. I'm not an expert on such 'illuminating' matters though, so i'm just guessing.
How is Tony Benn responsible for the education of his grandson ? Hilary and Stephen are both considerably to the right of their father politically (and unashamedly so), unlike Melissa. The fact he loves them all regardless makes him all the more of a rounded person.
What has his grandson's school got to do with it? How does it "illuminate" the life and views of one T. Benn?
Because he and his wife were fanatically pro comprehensive schools and yet he thought that he himself had a better education than his comprehensively educated children.
He obviously revised some of his views as he aged.
And so have his comprehensively educated children.
The success of one was because it became iconic but as a commercial venture from the manufacturing angle, it was a dismal failure that never recouped the investment by Britain and France.
I repeat, it was a commercial disaster, nobody wanted to buy it, they should have called it the Titanic. It was also an extremely noisy plane and that probably had something to do with its failure to sell.
In the speech by Benn I referred to in my previous post, without provocation, he claimed he would have cancelled Concorde had it not been for Britain still having to pay their share of the investment because they had signed the agreement with France. At the end of his speech, I suggested that France may have dropped the whole thing had Britain pulled out or that if they found another partner, whether we would still have to pay, other than a re-arrangement "fee", much less than staying in. He said he didn't think that would be the case and that France would demand full payment.
We went into the Concorde project under a failing Conservative government at a time when we were bust, exacly like we're looking at the high speed train project now. Concorde was as much, if not more, a political project as it was a commercial project and Tony Benn was playing politics. Of course, it was easy for him to condemn Concorde in 1972, when he knew full well that he had presided over a substantial commercial failure.
He made the speech in a school hall whilst supporting a by-election Labour candidate.
It prvided the UK with many thousands of highly skilled jobs,and gave people like me a chance to fly supersonic it made profits for B/A and was a great source of national pride,when in service.
The fact Richard Branson wanted to Fly it with Virgin Atlantic after B/A announced its decomissioning speaks volumes,and the very fact that Concorde had huge crowds wiating to see her wherever she went on the farewell tour,meant people were sad to see it go.
The Russians even tried to make "Concordski" which they could not get right.
Nope in my view certainly not a diaster,Benn spoke at a meeting a few years ago i attended when asked about Concorde said it was a source of great pride to him and the UK workforce that helped produce it.
The Russians even tried to make "Concordski" which they could not get right.
That was actually due to the fact that the plans for the design were stolen (espionage) but had first been replaced (by the British) with false blueprints which led to Concordski being a death trap.
The one thing that sticks in my memory about Benn is that when the New Labour fanatics issues pagers so that everyone could be "on message" Benn turned his pager off and stuck in in a drawer.
What has his grandson's school got to do with it? How does it "illuminate" the life and views of one T. Benn?
The connecting word is "school". Benn came from, not untypically wealthy family of socialists yet went to public school. As someone has pointed out, the duplicitous Benn tried to erase his "priveleged" education from history.
The connecting word is "school". Benn came from, not untypically wealthy family of socialists yet went to public school. As someone has pointed out, the duplicitous Benn tried to erase his "priveleged" education from history.
He would struggle to do that as many of us are quite old. He certainly disassociated himself from his privileged background. I was very cynical about him years ago, however time has worked in his favour and while I did not always agree with him I understood his stance.
It prvided the UK with many thousands of highly skilled jobs,and gave people like me a chance to fly supersonic it made profits for B/A and was a great source of national pride,when in service.
Perhaps it took some of that skilled labour away from industries that would have benefitted more. The national pride was misplaced, people should have thought more about how much it cost a poverty stricken Britain.
The fact Richard Branson wanted to Fly it with Virgin Atlantic after B/A announced its decomissioning speaks volumes,
Branson recognised the iconic importance and the self-esteem it would provide him with, it's the sort of person he is. Perhaps he should have had one made, it might have outperformed his balloon.
and the very fact that Concorde had huge crowds wiating to see her wherever she went on the farewell tour,meant people were sad to see it go.
I've already told you, Concorde became an icon in the minds of people who are marketing men's dreams
The Russians even tried to make "Concordski" which they could not get right.
That's irrelevant and there were reasons for their failure.
Nope in my view certainly not a diaster,Benn spoke at a meeting a few years ago i attended when asked about Concorde said it was a source of great pride to him and the UK workforce that helped produce it.
Your view is unimportant against the fact that commercially it was an unmitigated disaster that, to use a pun, never really got off the ground, well certainly not without a lot of noise.
If you look at what Benn said at the meeting I attended and the one you attended, you just might work out how duplicitous he was/is.
i have to say i struggle to understand this point of view.
i don't see that the strength with which one holds ones convictions is automatically something to be celebrated. particularly in the event that i judge those convictions to be wrong.
nobody i know has ever saluted a suicide bomber for his courage of conviction. or someone who has worked diligently for the KKK all his life in the face of much pressure, by saying well i disagreed with him but you have to admire his conviction.
i think he was wrong, i think he was a danger to this country. it is a personal tragedy for him and his family, obviously. but that is all.
I'm sorry but that is utter rot.
People should stand up for what they believe, not what they think public opinion thinks at any one time. The public can be notoriously fickle anyway.
How can you compare a man campaigning for what he believes in to a suicide bomber??!! A suicide bomber causes untold miseryto whole families
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yes but that means by some metric or another you are performing an analysis of someone's beliefs before you give them credit for having the courage to steadfastly stick to them.
Benn wasn't always a way out leftie by comparison with the rest of the Labour Party, he changed when he thought he saw an advantage of playing outside left.
Interesting. Benn was one of the fanatically pro-Comprehensive Labourites who sent their children to Holland Park School which was then a trendy hallmark of the perfect comprehensive. He said later in an interview that he thought that he had had a far better education than his children so the fact that his grandson is not in a comprehensive is illuminating.
He also tried to get the details of his own education deleted from Who's Who.
How about "I hope your grand dad gets better" ?
I hope he does and wish him a speedy recovery.
You mean he saw that it would be advantageous to the British people in having more Socialist policies adopted?
I agree with you.
This is pretty desperate stuff.
What motivates it?
Might be something to do with the fact he's not the legal guardian of his grandson. I'm not an expert on such 'illuminating' matters though, so i'm just guessing.
sorry when you say it's desperate, are you saying it's not true? or there's nothing wrong with it?
What has his grandson's school got to do with it? How does it "illuminate" the life and views of one T. Benn?
oh his grandson doesn't.
but that was not the only thing in the post.
Did I say that he didn't love his children?
Because he and his wife were fanatically pro comprehensive schools and yet he thought that he himself had a better education than his comprehensively educated children.
He obviously revised some of his views as he aged.
And so have his comprehensively educated children.
No, I mean he was typically an opportunist politician.
Still agree with me?
The connecting word is "school". Benn came from, not untypically wealthy family of socialists yet went to public school. As someone has pointed out, the duplicitous Benn tried to erase his "priveleged" education from history.
He would struggle to do that as many of us are quite old. He certainly disassociated himself from his privileged background. I was very cynical about him years ago, however time has worked in his favour and while I did not always agree with him I understood his stance.
I'm sorry but that is utter rot.
People should stand up for what they believe, not what they think public opinion thinks at any one time. The public can be notoriously fickle anyway.
How can you compare a man campaigning for what he believes in to a suicide bomber??!! A suicide bomber causes untold miseryto whole families