Ever since Hamas won the parliamenerty elections in 2006, Israel and US/UK especially demanded that Hamas must agree to Israel's pre conditions that Fatah agreed to in the 1990's. When Hamas didn't, the blockades on Gaza went on again and imo the US/UK Government's through Bush/Blair played divide and rule between Fatah and Hamas.
Hamas's election win in 2006 gave them the right to form the Government of Palestine on both sides (Gaza + The West bank) but the elected President is part of Fatah. Once divide and rule tactics were deployed, it resulted in Fatah "ruling" the West Bank where Israel allows them to and Hamas ruled Gaza.
There have been at least 2 attempts since to have a unity government but Israel does not like it because Hamas do not agree to their pre conditions. Israel won't accept pre condiitons themselves btw but they expect Hamas to agree to theirs. I think this latest war is ultimately down to israel not wanting the palestinians to be united.
In any case the elections for both President and Government are well overdue. I think the Presidents term ended around 2008 at the latest and the Government elections should have been held in 2010 or 11. Its all on hold because of the general turmoil going on. The President of the Palestinians (Mahmood Abbas or Abu Mazen as some call him) was reported to want to retire a few years ago too.
Ever since Hamas won the parliamenerty elections in 2006, Israel and US/UK especially demanded that Hamas must agree to Israel's pre conditions that Fatah agreed to in the 1990's. When Hamas didn't, the blockades on Gaza went on again and imo the US/UK Government's through Bush/Blair played divide and rule between Fatah and Hamas.
Hamas's election win in 2006 gave them the right to form the Government of Palestine on both sides (Gaza + The West bank) but the elected President is part of Fatah. Once divide and rule tactics were deployed, it resulted in Fatah "ruling" the West Bank where Israel allows them to and Hamas ruled Gaza.
There have been at least 2 attempts since to have a unity government but Israel does not like it because Hamas do not agree to their pre conditions. Israel won't accept pre condiitons themselves btw but they expect Hamas to agree to theirs. I think this latest war is ultimately down to israel not wanting the palestinians to be united.
In any case the elections for both President and Government are well overdue. I think the Presidents term ended around 2008 at the latest and the Government elections should have been held in 2010 or 11. Its all on hold because of the general turmoil going on. The President of the Palestinians (Mahmood Abbas or Abu Mazen as some call him) was reported to want to retire a few years ago too.
I did talk a bit about Zionists and their push for a state of their own and power but someone had the post removed. The only history seemingly allowed is the holocaust. Anything else is shouted down and has been throughout history. You can even end up in prison in some places for talking about it can't you? That's some heavy duty censorship.
There have been at least 2 attempts since to have a unity government but Israel does not like it because Hamas do not agree to their pre conditions. Israel won't accept pre condiitons themselves btw but they expect Hamas to agree to theirs. I think this latest war is ultimately down to israel not wanting the palestinians to be united.
Israel wont accept the preconditions because one of them is to open the rafah crossing and Hamas will funnel weapons into Gaza like they have done in the past using tunnels.
Israel wont accept the preconditions because one of them is to open the rafah crossing and Hamas will funnel weapons into Gaza like they have done in the past using tunnels.
But they stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
But they stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
Then the UN will confiscate the weapons and hand them to the "authorities" to dispose of?
Israel wont accept the preconditions because one of them is to open the rafah crossing and Hamas will funnel weapons into Gaza like they have done in the past using tunnels.
Another precondition is that Hamas want Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders and Israel has no intention of giving up any of the land stolen from Palestinians after 1967.
In fact, Moshe Feiglin, an Israeli politician and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, Knesset Member, and head of the Manhigut Yehudit faction of Israel's governing Likud party has plans for Gaza.
"""Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.
Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza."""
Hopefully it's temporary. He was getting a bit OTT in some of his replies due the provocation but earlier replies made more sense. Both extremes seem to be getting personal on this thread and just accusing each other of anything they can think of.
Can we go back to discussing the issues and avoid making it personal?
Nice idea, but SO not gonna happen. And people on both sides will no doubt claim DS has a bias against them.
And if a bunch of people sat at home in front of their computers can't chill their shit enough to have a reasoned debate, then what hope for those actually in the warzone?
Another precondition is that Hamas want Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders and Israel has no intention of giving up any of the land stolen from Palestinians after 1967.
In fact, Moshe Feiglin, an Israeli politician and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, Knesset Member, and head of the Manhigut Yehudit faction of Israel's governing Likud party has plans for Gaza.
"""Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.
Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza."""
I suppose if the Arabs had won the Six Day War they would have handed the land back to Israel ?
Isn't a chance that would happen as most of the time they can't agree with other
The rest of the article:.
"According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship."
I suppose if the Arabs had won the Six Day War they would have handed the land back to Israel ?
Isn't a chance that would happen as most of the time they can't agree with other
The rest of the article:.
"According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship."
What polls?
Do you really believe that most Palestinians want to leave Gaza?
If any want to leave Gaza, maybe the places they would like to go to are Ashdod, Sderot, their homes before they were evicted and made refugees in Gaza,
Had Israel lost they would have been left at the 1947 borders. However, they didn't, they won so the Internationally recognised borders are the 1967, but Israel has no intention of giving an inch back. They even passed planning for more illegal settlements while John Kerry was there a couple of months ago, sabotaging the peace talks.
But they stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
How are they going to get Egypt to agree to that when Hamas is an off shoot of the muslim brotherhood and sisi isn't exactly on friendly terms with them and i don't think he wants terrorists running out of Gaza and into Egypt to stock up on weapons.
The Palestinians should have their own state but I'm not sure that handing over their immediate future to a bunch of mad men is a good start and i don't understand how anyone with any concern for the Palestinians would want that.
They openly talk about indoctrinating children to become suicide bombers to liberate Palestine from Israel, not just Gaza... all of Palestine.
Why isn't anyone trying to get rid of Hamas first?
How are they going to get Egypt to agree to that when Hamas is an off shoot of the muslim brotherhood and sisi isn't exactly on friendly terms with them and i don't think he wants terrorists running out of Gaza and into Egypt to stock up on weapons.
The Palestinians should have their own state but I'm not sure that handing over their immediate future to a bunch of mad men is a good start and i don't understand how anyone with any concern for the Palestinians would want that.
They openly talk about indoctrinating children to become suicide bombers to liberate Palestine from Israel, not just Gaza... all of Palestine.
Why isn't anyone trying to get rid of Hamas first?
Didn't you read the post?
They stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
They stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
sounds sensible until you read the other thread about the UN
They stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
It would be good if the UN could do that. I doubt though the Israelis would go along with it partly for the reasons you say and also because the UN already demonstrated a lack of intelligence since rockets were (and possibly still are) being hidden in UN buildings and when the UN found them they essentially handed them back to Hamas. Whether any of us think that's a good or a bad thing, it's not going to help the UN get Israel to work with them. The UN have set themselves back in what they can do to try to get this mess stabilised. We can hope though. There's always hope they'll be able to patrol the border. Problem is, if the UN makes a mistake either way the side that feels wronged will go on the offensive.
They stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
Yes i did but its the Egyptians who patrol it since Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip and Egypt closed it because terrorists were coming out of Gaza and joining the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt.
Do you really believe that most Arabs want to leave Gaza?
If any want to leave Gaza, maybe the places they would like to go to are Ashdod, Sderot, their homes before they were evicted and made refugees in Gaza,
Had Israel lost they would have been left at the 1947 borders. However, they didn't, they won so the Internationally recognised borders are the 1967, but Israel has no intention of giving an inch back. They even passed planning for more illegal settlements while John Kerry was there a couple of months ago, sabotaging the peace talks.
The last paragraph is at the bottom the article you posted. So maybe you can enlighten us as you originally linked it.
There is better opportunities in the other Arab states and should they be granted Israeli citizenship there is better pain work in Israel.
Hamas through it's actions have ensured the borders are closed. Not the fault of the either sides civilians but they are trapped in Gaza by their elected leaders actions.
It would be good if the UN could do that. I doubt though the Israelis would go along with it partly for the reasons you say and also because the UN already demonstrated a lack of intelligence since rockets were (and possibly still are) being hidden in UN buildings and when the UN found them they essentially handed them back to Hamas. Whether any of us think that's a good or a bad thing, it's not going to help the UN get Israel to work with them. The UN have set themselves back in what they can do to try to get this mess stabilised. We can hope though. There's always hope they'll be able to patrol the border. Problem is, if the UN makes a mistake either way the side that feels wronged will go on the offensive.
It was an empty school and nowhere in this report does it say that they handed them back to Hamas.
Sorry, but I would still rather the UN patrol the borders than the IDF or Egypt.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/unrwa-investigating-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian
"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said. " UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."
It was an empty school and nowhere in this report does it say that they handed them back to Hamas.
Sorry, but I would still rather the UN patrol the borders than the IDF or Egypt.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/unrwa-investigating-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian
"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said. " UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."
It was an empty school and nowhere in this report does it say that they handed them back to Hamas.
Sorry, but I would still rather the UN patrol the borders than the IDF or Egypt.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/unrwa-investigating-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian
"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said. " UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."
Of course you would, but would you at least concede that israel and Egypt would see it differently.
The last paragraph is at the bottom the article you posted. So maybe you can enlighten us as you originally linked it.
There is better opportunities in the other Arab states and should they be granted Israeli citizenship there is better pain work in Israel.
Hamas through it's actions have ensured the borders are closed. Not the fault of the either sides civilians but they are trapped in Gaza by their elected leaders actions.
That article is sick, and I don't believe a poll was done suggesting Palestinians want to leave.
In the article he says: Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews.
He also says that those who are not involved in violence can go to the sinai.
Please tell me how he intends to populate Gaza with 'Jews' when it is already a densely populated area.
Of course you would, but would you at least concede that israel and Egypt would see it differently.
To be honest, I wouldn't care how Israel or Egypt see it. Niether have shown themselves to be morally or humanely responsible. They should be told, not asked.
To be honest, I wouldn't care how Israel or Egypt see it. Niether have shown themselves to be morally or humanely responsible. They should be told, not asked.
You do realise what the role and aim of the UN is, don't you?
Comments
Ever since Hamas won the parliamenerty elections in 2006, Israel and US/UK especially demanded that Hamas must agree to Israel's pre conditions that Fatah agreed to in the 1990's. When Hamas didn't, the blockades on Gaza went on again and imo the US/UK Government's through Bush/Blair played divide and rule between Fatah and Hamas.
Hamas's election win in 2006 gave them the right to form the Government of Palestine on both sides (Gaza + The West bank) but the elected President is part of Fatah. Once divide and rule tactics were deployed, it resulted in Fatah "ruling" the West Bank where Israel allows them to and Hamas ruled Gaza.
There have been at least 2 attempts since to have a unity government but Israel does not like it because Hamas do not agree to their pre conditions. Israel won't accept pre condiitons themselves btw but they expect Hamas to agree to theirs. I think this latest war is ultimately down to israel not wanting the palestinians to be united.
In any case the elections for both President and Government are well overdue. I think the Presidents term ended around 2008 at the latest and the Government elections should have been held in 2010 or 11. Its all on hold because of the general turmoil going on. The President of the Palestinians (Mahmood Abbas or Abu Mazen as some call him) was reported to want to retire a few years ago too.
See post 2414
thanks
So now the Mods are in on the conspiracy.:D
I think I see what you are getting at
Israel wont accept the preconditions because one of them is to open the rafah crossing and Hamas will funnel weapons into Gaza like they have done in the past using tunnels.
But they stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
Then the UN will confiscate the weapons and hand them to the "authorities" to dispose of?
Another precondition is that Hamas want Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders and Israel has no intention of giving up any of the land stolen from Palestinians after 1967.
In fact, Moshe Feiglin, an Israeli politician and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, Knesset Member, and head of the Manhigut Yehudit faction of Israel's governing Likud party has plans for Gaza.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U9WHBWM1CSr
"""Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.
Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza."""
Nice idea, but SO not gonna happen. And people on both sides will no doubt claim DS has a bias against them.
And if a bunch of people sat at home in front of their computers can't chill their shit enough to have a reasoned debate, then what hope for those actually in the warzone?
I suppose if the Arabs had won the Six Day War they would have handed the land back to Israel ?
Isn't a chance that would happen as most of the time they can't agree with other
The rest of the article:.
"According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship."
What polls?
Do you really believe that most Palestinians want to leave Gaza?
If any want to leave Gaza, maybe the places they would like to go to are Ashdod, Sderot, their homes before they were evicted and made refugees in Gaza,
Had Israel lost they would have been left at the 1947 borders. However, they didn't, they won so the Internationally recognised borders are the 1967, but Israel has no intention of giving an inch back. They even passed planning for more illegal settlements while John Kerry was there a couple of months ago, sabotaging the peace talks.
How are they going to get Egypt to agree to that when Hamas is an off shoot of the muslim brotherhood and sisi isn't exactly on friendly terms with them and i don't think he wants terrorists running out of Gaza and into Egypt to stock up on weapons.
The Palestinians should have their own state but I'm not sure that handing over their immediate future to a bunch of mad men is a good start and i don't understand how anyone with any concern for the Palestinians would want that.
They openly talk about indoctrinating children to become suicide bombers to liberate Palestine from Israel, not just Gaza... all of Palestine.
Why isn't anyone trying to get rid of Hamas first?
After 2443 replies hopefully `Ethel_Fred ` now knows the answer
Didn't you read the post?
They stated let the UN patrol the borders. That would be better than the IDF patroling and some within the IDF taking potshots because they can with little chance of repercussions.
sounds sensible until you read the other thread about the UN
It would be good if the UN could do that. I doubt though the Israelis would go along with it partly for the reasons you say and also because the UN already demonstrated a lack of intelligence since rockets were (and possibly still are) being hidden in UN buildings and when the UN found them they essentially handed them back to Hamas. Whether any of us think that's a good or a bad thing, it's not going to help the UN get Israel to work with them. The UN have set themselves back in what they can do to try to get this mess stabilised. We can hope though. There's always hope they'll be able to patrol the border. Problem is, if the UN makes a mistake either way the side that feels wronged will go on the offensive.
Yes i did but its the Egyptians who patrol it since Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip and Egypt closed it because terrorists were coming out of Gaza and joining the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt.
The last paragraph is at the bottom the article you posted. So maybe you can enlighten us as you originally linked it.
There is better opportunities in the other Arab states and should they be granted Israeli citizenship there is better pain work in Israel.
Hamas through it's actions have ensured the borders are closed. Not the fault of the either sides civilians but they are trapped in Gaza by their elected leaders actions.
It was an empty school and nowhere in this report does it say that they handed them back to Hamas.
Sorry, but I would still rather the UN patrol the borders than the IDF or Egypt.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/unrwa-investigating-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian
"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said. " UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."
It's more than one school.
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/hamas-rockets-found-in-second-united-nations-school/374874/
The UN gave them to the local authorities and then the UN were "shocked, appalled and horrified" when the rockets later went missing. By giving the rockets to the local authorities they basically gave the rockets to Hamas. http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/the-un-might-have-given-hamas-those-20-rockets-stashed-their-school/374793/
Of course you would, but would you at least concede that israel and Egypt would see it differently.
That article is sick, and I don't believe a poll was done suggesting Palestinians want to leave.
In the article he says: Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews.
He also says that those who are not involved in violence can go to the sinai.
Please tell me how he intends to populate Gaza with 'Jews' when it is already a densely populated area.
To be honest, I wouldn't care how Israel or Egypt see it. Niether have shown themselves to be morally or humanely responsible. They should be told, not asked.
You do realise what the role and aim of the UN is, don't you?