I'm just a regular Christian, I don't discount the Big Bang Theory, but I do smile when my beliefs are derided because science disproves them. I'd have more faith in scientists if they are sang from the same hymn sheet. Global warming? Yes or no, depending upon who you listen to. Wine? Good for you or bad for you depending upon who you listen to. Life on other planets? Of course there is/isn't...depending upon who you listen to.
So I will carry on with my Christian faith, I believe my prayers are answered, not always how I want them answered but then prayers aren't meant to be shopping lists or a trade off (Dear God, if you do this, I'll be really good in return).
And I accept that, but I do find that frequently people who criticise religion claim that science is the be all and end all. The older I get the more I tend to see scientists at odds with each other.
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
So very true.
Logic, reason or evidence has no place in the evangelistic 'mind'.
How very frightening to think there are millions upon millions of these mouth-breathers (many in positions of great influence) in the most powerful country on earth.
I maintain that if the world were atheist, and had always been atheist, we'd be no better off. A lack of tolerance isn't just endemic to those of strong religious belief.
I maintain that if the world were atheist, and had always been atheist, we'd be no better off. A lack of tolerance isn't just endemic to those of strong religious belief.
The problem with organised religion is that it promotes the idea of absolute truth, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I dare say that if religion had never existed, the human psyche would have invented some other belief system with the same fundamental flaw -- it seems to be ingrained in the species. Some political systems share this trait.
None of this lets organised religion off the hook, of course.
I honestly don't care what others believe. As long as they don't attempt to interfere with my freedoms as an individual, they can think what they want.
And I accept that, but I do find that frequently people who criticise religion claim that science is the be all and end all. The older I get the more I tend to see scientists at odds with each other.
It is very rarely the case that scientists are "at odds with each other", rather that in areas where the evidence is incomplete, different media outlets tag on to various pieces of research and/or hypotheses and present them as fact. The scientists themselves would be keen to qualify the results.
A true scientist counts a negative result for their research as being just as valid and, indeed, exciting as a positive. "Belief in" their own pet hypotheses is a human failing, not part of the scientific method.
I do find it amusing when religious people use incomplete scientific information as some sort of justification for static belief in outmoded and, in some cases, just plain wrong beliefs. It's as if "I don't know" doesn't register in their head -- most peculiar.
How about taking out a full page advert in today's Times newspaper, completely filled with an enormous slab of text (no spaces between paragraphs) that's clearly the work of a lunatic? I could tell it was some kind of deranged, evangelist message by some very slightly larger text that formed a kind of headline. It would have been impossible to read, even by fellow sufferers.
True, I didn't read it. I don't think it was fundamentalist christian though. It looked more like fundamentalist bollocks.
I don't really hang out with fundamentalist christians a lot - I think I only have one friend who really fits the bill; it is not a very numerous group in the UK, and she is a member of an African church.
But I have read books by fairly fundamentalist US Christians - not insanely bigoted Westboro Baptist types, obviously - and I would say that the real sign of a fundamentalist is just that religion is far more ingrained in their lives than it is for the rest of us.
1. They often go to church three or four times a week. They do a lot of 'small group ministry', where groups of maybe 10 or 12 meet in someone's house to do extra Bible study or discuss moral issues. Some of them are disconcertingly confessional - I have heard of people being asked whether they have masturbated over pornography, that kind of thing.
2. The churches are in turn very interventionist. They will act as kind of Beth Din type courts, listening to disputes and ruling on the outcome. (They would not welcome the comparison.)
3. They are very keen to keep their children tightly in the fold, home-schooling them or sending them to private, religious schools; in the US, but not the UK, they can then move on to Christian colleges, barely coming into contact with even liberal christians, let alone atheists.
4. Every book, film, music track, tv programme and newspaper is scrutinized for religious acceptability.
5. Because their lives have been so tightly controlled, they often react with exaggerated shock to anything that does not comply with their world view. Obama, for example, is often seen as evil, as an instrument of Satan; so is pretty well any non-Christian rock band.
6. They buy very specific books from their own publishers. American fundamentalists can easily reach their early 20's without every meeting anyone or reading a book by anyone who believes that evolution is indisputably true.
Don't have sex before marriage
Only eat at certain times of the year & starve yourself during other times
No gambling
No same sex relations
No blood transfusions
No celebrating birthdays
No having friends if they are not of the same religion
No consideration for the use of contraception
No eating certain types of meat
the abuse of circumcision
Yes I can see that religion is full of that thing called Freedom.
Don't have sex before marriage
Only eat at certain times of the year & starve yourself during other times
No gambling
No same sex relations
No blood transfusions
No celebrating birthdays
No having friends if they are not of the same religion
No consideration for the use of contraception
No eating certain types of meat
the abuse of circumcision
Yes I can see that religion is full of that thing called Freedom.
All the above with the exception of one (abuse of circumcision), can easily apply to many people by personal choice. Religious or not.
Regards circumcision you will undoubtedly find people of no particular faith at all who still practice that. Myself personally, i have always been against it unless necessary for health/medical reasons.
Don't have sex before marriage
Only eat at certain times of the year & starve yourself during other times
No gambling
No same sex relations
No blood transfusions
No celebrating birthdays
No having friends if they are not of the same religion
No consideration for the use of contraception
No eating certain types of meat
the abuse of circumcision
Yes I can see that religion is full of that thing called Freedom.
What is all this tripe?
Of course Believers are allowed to celebrate birthdays, have friends whether believer or non-believer, eat anytime they like then when it comes to fasting then they fast.
You can't reason with these types. They believe in half a book (but with selected parts of the first half, usually only the bits that allow homophobia) written before humanity knew that science could explain most things. They believe it to be the truth, without any proof or evidence.
True- but the problem with the mocking of religion that seems to take place daily on this forum is that its unoriginal and pointless... the atheists have heard it all before and the poster is just preaching to the choir and the religious don't care about their beliefs being laughed at and criticised because they have faith... You can't reason someone out of an unreaonable belief. I would bet that the posters who contineously post these atheists threads have never once caused a beliver to lose faithl.
True- but the problem with the mocking of religion that seems to take place daily on this forum is that its unoriginal and pointless... the atheists have heard it all before and the poster is just preaching to the choir and the religious don't care about their beliefs being laughed at and criticised because they have faith... You can't reason someone out of an unreaonable belief. I would bet that the posters who contineously post these atheists threads have never once caused a beliver to lose faithl.
Hopefully it will plant a seed, causing them at some point to question thier belief.
Hopefully it will plant a seed, causing them at some point to question thier belief.
Maybe if the threads werre a bit more reasoned, original and well argued... but usually they resort to mocking and insulting.... turns believers right off atheism as they think it turns people into assholes. No seeds planted on this forum I would bet
11) You use the Old Testament liberally to prove the case for Jesus (using far-fetched and ridiculous interpretation techniques which sees things that aren't there) but glaze over when pushed further about the OT because "Christians aren't bound by the OT and besides, that's the Jewish bible."
12) You burn witches and hate homosexuals "because the Old Testament says so" but casually ignore all the bits in the same book that contradict Jesus H Christ.
I'm just a regular Christian, I don't discount the Big Bang Theory, but I do smile when my beliefs are derided because science disproves them. I'd have more faith in scientists if they are sang from the same hymn sheet. Global warming? Yes or no, depending upon who you listen to. Wine? Good for you or bad for you depending upon who you listen to. Life on other planets? Of course there is/isn't...depending upon who you listen to.
So I will carry on with my Christian faith, I believe my prayers are answered, not always how I want them answered but then prayers aren't meant to be shopping lists or a trade off (Dear God, if you do this, I'll be really good in return).
So true, we don't always get what we want but usually what we need I think.
I maintain that if the world were atheist, and had always been atheist, we'd be no better off. A lack of tolerance isn't just endemic to those of strong religious belief.
Don't have sex before marriage
Only eat at certain times of the year & starve yourself during other times
No gambling
No same sex relations
No blood transfusions
No celebrating birthdays
No having friends if they are not of the same religion
No consideration for the use of contraception
No eating certain types of meat
the abuse of circumcision
Yes I can see that religion is full of that thing called Freedom.
No sex before marriage (I was an atheist when I insisted on that)
No gambling (well that's more because only people who can afford to lose money should ever bet it's not a very bright thing to do if you can't afford it)
No same sex relations - not something I am against just not keen on it for myself, quite happily married to a man.
No blood transfusions - very rare sects insist on that one
No celebrating birthdays - we celebrate birth of Jesus every year and all the kids birthdays until they are 18 then yes we stop but that is because we prefer to spend on the kids in the family than the adults nothing to do with religion.
No eating meat full stop - vegetarian for many years not a religious thing at al
No contraception again just a few sects believe that one, me I think safety should be put first at all times.
No having friends outside the religion - must have missed that one I seem to have friends all across the board, and my husband a devote Christian married me when I was an Atheist and never put any pressure on me to change at all.
I feel as free as I always have, freer possibly as I can stop worrying about things I have no control over and let life happen content that I will be fine.
Hopefully it will plant a seed, causing them at some point to question thier belief.
Or like me a 48 year atheist will question why they don't believe, what they don't believe and come out the other side of the search as a person with Faith. Be careful you may be doing a better job than believers at converting people to believe.
Last two posts help prove my point... the first claims christians hate gay people... I don;t know any christian that hates anyone... some might not approve of people of people practicing homosexuality but only nutters like Fred Phelps hate gay people.. Then a rant about burning witches... kinda like criticising todays Britain for the slave trade. The post completely misrepresents modern mainstream christianity.
Then this
While they are concentrating on us at least they are not having a go at anyone else, and we can take it I think even makes my belief stronger.
See - Insultng people generally doesn't help convince them of your arguments.
To be fair, a number of British Muslims who are starting to doubt the existence of God / Allah often dare not tell their devout family, for fear of being thrown out of the house or worse. It was the same situation for doubting-Christians for centuries. One guy from a British-African community dare not tell the rest of his community about his atheism.
Comments
Yes, continually
Great post.
And I accept that, but I do find that frequently people who criticise religion claim that science is the be all and end all. The older I get the more I tend to see scientists at odds with each other.
So very true.
Logic, reason or evidence has no place in the evangelistic 'mind'.
How very frightening to think there are millions upon millions of these mouth-breathers (many in positions of great influence) in the most powerful country on earth.
The problem with organised religion is that it promotes the idea of absolute truth, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I dare say that if religion had never existed, the human psyche would have invented some other belief system with the same fundamental flaw -- it seems to be ingrained in the species. Some political systems share this trait.
None of this lets organised religion off the hook, of course.
I honestly don't care what others believe. As long as they don't attempt to interfere with my freedoms as an individual, they can think what they want.
It is very rarely the case that scientists are "at odds with each other", rather that in areas where the evidence is incomplete, different media outlets tag on to various pieces of research and/or hypotheses and present them as fact. The scientists themselves would be keen to qualify the results.
A true scientist counts a negative result for their research as being just as valid and, indeed, exciting as a positive. "Belief in" their own pet hypotheses is a human failing, not part of the scientific method.
I do find it amusing when religious people use incomplete scientific information as some sort of justification for static belief in outmoded and, in some cases, just plain wrong beliefs. It's as if "I don't know" doesn't register in their head -- most peculiar.
True, I didn't read it.
I don't really hang out with fundamentalist christians a lot - I think I only have one friend who really fits the bill; it is not a very numerous group in the UK, and she is a member of an African church.
But I have read books by fairly fundamentalist US Christians - not insanely bigoted Westboro Baptist types, obviously - and I would say that the real sign of a fundamentalist is just that religion is far more ingrained in their lives than it is for the rest of us.
1. They often go to church three or four times a week. They do a lot of 'small group ministry', where groups of maybe 10 or 12 meet in someone's house to do extra Bible study or discuss moral issues. Some of them are disconcertingly confessional - I have heard of people being asked whether they have masturbated over pornography, that kind of thing.
2. The churches are in turn very interventionist. They will act as kind of Beth Din type courts, listening to disputes and ruling on the outcome. (They would not welcome the comparison.)
3. They are very keen to keep their children tightly in the fold, home-schooling them or sending them to private, religious schools; in the US, but not the UK, they can then move on to Christian colleges, barely coming into contact with even liberal christians, let alone atheists.
4. Every book, film, music track, tv programme and newspaper is scrutinized for religious acceptability.
5. Because their lives have been so tightly controlled, they often react with exaggerated shock to anything that does not comply with their world view. Obama, for example, is often seen as evil, as an instrument of Satan; so is pretty well any non-Christian rock band.
6. They buy very specific books from their own publishers. American fundamentalists can easily reach their early 20's without every meeting anyone or reading a book by anyone who believes that evolution is indisputably true.
So much for freedom.
I don't like these kind of threads either but if you want freedom they are part of the deal.
No.
What you meant to say was that religion's crusade against freedom continues.
All over the world.
Freedom eh
Don't have sex before marriage
Only eat at certain times of the year & starve yourself during other times
No gambling
No same sex relations
No blood transfusions
No celebrating birthdays
No having friends if they are not of the same religion
No consideration for the use of contraception
No eating certain types of meat
the abuse of circumcision
Yes I can see that religion is full of that thing called Freedom.
Regards circumcision you will undoubtedly find people of no particular faith at all who still practice that. Myself personally, i have always been against it unless necessary for health/medical reasons.
What is all this tripe?
Of course Believers are allowed to celebrate birthdays, have friends whether believer or non-believer, eat anytime they like then when it comes to fasting then they fast.
The freedom to mock religion is an important one.
True- but the problem with the mocking of religion that seems to take place daily on this forum is that its unoriginal and pointless... the atheists have heard it all before and the poster is just preaching to the choir and the religious don't care about their beliefs being laughed at and criticised because they have faith... You can't reason someone out of an unreaonable belief. I would bet that the posters who contineously post these atheists threads have never once caused a beliver to lose faithl.
Hopefully it will plant a seed, causing them at some point to question thier belief.
Maybe if the threads werre a bit more reasoned, original and well argued... but usually they resort to mocking and insulting.... turns believers right off atheism as they think it turns people into assholes. No seeds planted on this forum I would bet
12) You burn witches and hate homosexuals "because the Old Testament says so" but casually ignore all the bits in the same book that contradict Jesus H Christ.
So true, we don't always get what we want but usually what we need I think.
You may well be right.
While they are concentrating on us at least they are not having a go at anyone else, and we can take it I think even makes my belief stronger.
No sex before marriage (I was an atheist when I insisted on that)
No gambling (well that's more because only people who can afford to lose money should ever bet it's not a very bright thing to do if you can't afford it)
No same sex relations - not something I am against just not keen on it for myself, quite happily married to a man.
No blood transfusions - very rare sects insist on that one
No celebrating birthdays - we celebrate birth of Jesus every year and all the kids birthdays until they are 18 then yes we stop but that is because we prefer to spend on the kids in the family than the adults nothing to do with religion.
No eating meat full stop - vegetarian for many years not a religious thing at al
No contraception again just a few sects believe that one, me I think safety should be put first at all times.
No having friends outside the religion - must have missed that one I seem to have friends all across the board, and my husband a devote Christian married me when I was an Atheist and never put any pressure on me to change at all.
I feel as free as I always have, freer possibly as I can stop worrying about things I have no control over and let life happen content that I will be fine.
Or like me a 48 year atheist will question why they don't believe, what they don't believe and come out the other side of the search as a person with Faith. Be careful you may be doing a better job than believers at converting people to believe.
Then this
See - Insultng people generally doesn't help convince them of your arguments.
To be fair, a number of British Muslims who are starting to doubt the existence of God / Allah often dare not tell their devout family, for fear of being thrown out of the house or worse. It was the same situation for doubting-Christians for centuries. One guy from a British-African community dare not tell the rest of his community about his atheism.
It works both ways.