up until the rape you can feel sorry for him, even if he has more than he realises, and some of what he says seems fake like he trying to make a pass at Linda, but yeah raping Linda takes it to a new level.
The concept of rape can never excused, to force yourself sexually upon someone without their consent is a horrific invasion of their basic human rights. Plus...not legal.
It's rightfully abhorred and considered despicable by one and all!
BUT
That's not to suggest that we can't feel sorry for a fellow human who has sunk so low as to commit rape. Dean is not inherently a bad person, that was displayed in all of the scenes before the rape, finding out your father is not your father can affect people in different ways, his awful mother has dumped on him all his life and his time in jail (which he brought upon himself) was damning and has transformed him into what he now is. He doesn't appear to care any more about his own life and is drifting aimlessly.
The act cannot be excused or sympathized with, but what has led this man to do it, can be.
I'm so annoyed that they did this with Dean...the character is finished.
The concept of rape can never excused, to force yourself sexually upon someone without their consent is a horrific invasion of their basic human rights. Plus...not legal.
It's rightfully abhorred and considered despicable by one and all!
BUT
That's not to suggest that we can't feel sorry for a fellow human who has sunk so low as to commit rape. Dean is not inherently a bad person, that was displayed in all of the scenes before the rape, finding out your father is not your father can affect people in different ways, his awful mother has dumped on him all his life and his time in jail (which he brought upon himself) was damning and has transformed him into what he now is. He doesn't appear to care any more about his own life and is drifting aimlessly.
The act cannot be excused or sympathized with, but what has led this man to do it, can be.
I'm so annoyed that they did this with Dean...the character is finished.
I agree.
Maybe they should have developed his obsession with Linda more and turned him into an erotomanic stalker rather than a rapist. He does seem completely different from the likes of Finn O Connor, Frank Foster etc because as you rightly said he is not inherently bad, obviously needs psychiatric help and we can see what led to it but he can never come back from such a horrendous crime.
I see parallels with the Wilmott-Brown rape 26 years ago, while he wasn't quite as an endearing character as Dean once was, but the character simply wasn't a sexual predator until Leslie Grantham decided to leave and they dreamed up the story to write him out. Wilmott-Brown was shown as someone whose business was failing, whose wife had left him and whose children he didn't see much of, Kathy sympathized with him in much the same way as Linda did last night (but without the family connection) and he, drunk as Dean was, took that to mean she wanted sex, by any means necessary.
Once the act is committed, he was a villain from then on in, showing no remorse and suggesting that the victim is lying. Dean will do the same, which is such a shame because we know he's a good person deep down, but the perpetrator of a crime of this nature will always be vilified in a TV show, you won't see any of the scenes you saw of Dean last night before the rape...only when he admits his crime and breaks down, he will deny wrongdoing for weeks.
As I say, its a shame, as I like the character of Dean, his complex nature...this plot will kill the character as the viewers will never accept him again...mind you...oh how we all love the murdering, child swapping Ronnie
I see parallels with the Wilmott-Brown rape 26 years ago, while he wasn't quite as an endearing character as Dean once was, but the character simply wasn't a sexual predator until Leslie Grantham decided to leave and they dreamed up the story to write him out. Wilmott-Brown was shown as someone whose business was failing, whose wife had left him and whose children he didn't see much of, Kathy sympathized with him in much the same way as Linda did last night (but without the family connection) and he, drunk as Dean was, took that to mean she wanted sex, by any means necessary.
Once the act is committed, he was a villain from then on in, showing no remorse and suggesting that the victim is lying. Dean will do the same, which is such a shame because we know he's a good person deep down, but the perpetrator of a crime of this nature will always be vilified in a TV show, you won't see any of the scenes you saw of Dean last night before the rape...only when he admits his crime and breaks down, he will deny wrongdoing for weeks.
As I say, its a shame, as I like the character of Dean, his complex nature...this plot will kill the character as the viewers will never accept him again...mind you...oh how we all love the murdering, child swapping Ronnie
Ronnie's different. She admitted what she did, gave back the baby and accepted her punishment.
I don't remember the Kathy/Vilmont case clearly but I do think that was more violent than this one - in this case I think Dean is a good person deep down but clearly delusional - I never got that vibe from Wilmont Brown.
The pictures and autumn trailer may have given me the wrong idea but it did look as though Dean was treading carefully around Linda and seemed hesitant/awkward which ties in with his delusion that they had a one night stand.
I don't remember the Kathy/Vilmont case clearly but I do think that was more violent than this one - in this case I think Dean is a good person deep down but clearly delusional - I never got that vibe from Wilmont Brown.
.
But you just said you couldn't remember it?
Wilmott-Brown in the two years before the rape was a good bloke, enjoying a friendly inter-pub rivalry with Den over the course of 1987. He was a little smug and cocksure, but you had to be if you're going to rival Dennis Watts. No inkling of impropriety until March of 88 when he takes Kathy on as a barmaid.
The difference is that we have gotten to know Dean far more as a person then we ever did WB. And the fact that he's much younger too makes it all the more stark.
Wilmott-Brown in the two years before the rape was a good bloke, enjoying a friendly inter-pub rivalry with Den over the course of 1987. He was a little smug and cocksure, but you had to be if you're going to rival Dennis Watts. No inkling of impropriety until March of 88 when he takes Kathy on as a barmaid.
The difference is that we have gotten to know Dean far more as a person then we ever did WB. And the fact that he's much younger too makes it all the more stark.
I saw the actual rape episode on You Tube at one point - I remember Den finding Kathy and taking her to Pauline's house. I didn't see anything that happened before that so I don't know Wilmont that well.
For me the turning point was when he came back upstairs after seeing her with her family. I sympathised with Dean up until that point.
I agree with the bit in bold but I am sorry that it didn't stem purely from his obsession with her and that it ended up being power/control oriented after al rather than losing control of himself - what then was the point of him getting obsessed with her and wanting to supplant Mick?
I agree that Dean needs help but his actions were too abhorrent for me to feel anything towards him.
I've been racking my brain on why I felt nothing for Dean afterwards. It just left me feeling empty toward him. And it is because his actions lead to the BIB. I really did think the s/l would have stemmed from Dean's mental state. While it did, it then turned into something else. I'm not sure that is how the writer and director intended it to be but that is how it came across to me from the screen.
I have no problems associating Dean's actions with his mental state. But his actions and behaviour were borderline psychopathic that reduced Dean from being a deeply disturbed young man who had my sympathy to one who raped a woman for the sake of it because he could and he did.
I expected that given the scenes we had before the rape and before he overheard the conversation in the pub, Dean would have misread Linda's kindness and compassion for the type of love and acceptance he was looking for. As it is, they chose to have Dean overhear the conversation and he turned from a despairing man to a sadist.
I don't know if that was what they intended, but if they wanted to emphasis that Dean's actions stemmed from whatever is going on in his head, I don't think that would be most people's lasting impression of Dean.
I've been racking my brain on why I felt nothing for Dean afterwards. It just left me feeling empty toward him. And it is because his actions lead to the BIB. I really did think the s/l would have stemmed from Dean's mental state. While it did, it then turned into something else. I'm not sure that is how the writer and director intended it to be but that is how it came across to me from the screen.
I have no problems associating Dean's actions with his mental state. But his actions and behaviour were borderline psychopathic that reduced Dean from being a deeply disturbed young man who had my sympathy to one who raped a woman for the sake of it because he could and he did.
I expected that given the scenes we had before the rape and before he overheard the conversation in the pub, Dean would have misread Linda's kindness and compassion for the type of love and acceptance he was looking for. As it is, they chose to have Dean overhear the conversation and he turned from a despairing man to a sadist.
I don't know if that was what they intended, but if they wanted to emphasis that Dean's actions stemmed from whatever is going on in his head, I don't think that would be most people's lasting impression of Dean.
I felt empty towards Dean too but no hate or rage because the things he said were delusional and he wasn't "violent violent".
I agree with the bits in bold and I am disappointed that they went down the path of him taking advantage because he could. Maybe if Nancy hadn't come in - if he'd broken down properly, tried to kiss her, she backed away and he lost control I might have been more saddened and sympathetic though no less shocked.
Interestingly when he first came into that kitchen, he looked exactly like he was seducing her but that was before he put her on the table.
I'm interested to see how he behaves tonight. He did seem shifty and awkward around Mick last night - one thing we know for sure is that he won't be revelling in having power and control over her the way Finn did with JP.
I saw the actual rape episode on You Tube at one point - I remember Den finding Kathy and taking her to Pauline's house. I didn't see anything that happened before that so I don't know Wilmont that well.
BIB - I agree.
He was in the show for over two years previous to that.
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. They did a good job of letting the viewers know what was going on in Dean's head. But people get dealt rough hands in life and don't go around using it as an excuse to hate the world. I'm not talking about the rape, but Dean was sowing seeds of trouble before that (the way he sometimes, treated Lauren, Lola, Linda, Tina.....). Linda pointed out all the things he had going for him but he was too busy focusing on the negatives and what he didn't have (or felt he didn't), to be positive. His resentment and envy eventually manifested itself in the worst possible way. Sorry, but he was too self pitying for me to be totally sympathetic. I could empathise with Dean but sympathy for me comes with how someone acts as well as what they've been through.
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. They did a good job of letting the viewers know what was going on in Dean's head. But people get dealt rough hands in life and don't go around using it as an excuse to hate the world. I'm not talking about the rape, but Dean was sowing seeds of trouble before that (the way he sometimes, treated Lauren, Lola, Linda, Tina.....). Linda pointed out all the things he had going for him but he was too busy focusing on the negatives and what he didn't have (or felt he didn't), to be positive. His resentment and envy eventually manifested itself in the worst possible way. Sorry, but he was too self pitying for me to be totally sympathetic. I could empathise with Dean but sympathy for me comes with how someone acts as well as what they've been through.
Dean didn't come across as self pitying to me, just very damaged though that was before he saw Linda with her family and got jealous. After that I was disturbed by his jealousy and brooding and shocked when he came into the kitchen and started coming on to Linda.
I'd have felt sympathy for him up to the attack if Matt Di Angelo wasn't such an awful actor. In more capable hands I think the rape would have been more shocking as Dean(o) would have managed to get our sympathy.
Far less than I thought I would. He was completely self absorbed and self pitying. He didn't have a dreadful childhood...as Linda pointed out, Kevin was a lovely bloke. Dean could only focus on the negative in that he wasn't his real father. Linda mentioned Carly, but Dean is angry with her as well, can't remember the reason. Linda points out that he's got a family but he wasn't buying. Fair enough, he's depressed and not thinking straight, but I still found it hard to feel sorry for him.
Then we come to the rape. She goes to make him some hot chocolate, a nice motherly thing to do....but that wasn't right either. Did he need to punish or control her at that point ? One thing's for sure, it wasn't love as I'd first thought. The way he just zipped up and walked out, leaving her splayed across that table...now that was cold.
I'd have felt sympathy for him up to the attack if Matt Di Angelo wasn't such an awful actor. In more capable hands I think the rape would have been more shocking as Dean(o) would have managed to get our sympathy.
I felt empty towards Dean too but no hate or rage because the things he said were delusional and he wasn't "violent violent".
I agree with the bits in bold and I am disappointed that they went down the path of him taking advantage because he could. Maybe if Nancy hadn't come in - if he'd broken down properly, tried to kiss her, she backed away and he lost control I might have been more saddened and sympathetic though no less shocked.
Interestingly when he first came into that kitchen, he looked exactly like he was seducing her but that was before he put her on the table.
I'm interested to see how he behaves tonight. He did seem shifty and awkward around Mick last night - one thing we know for sure is that he won't be revelling in having power and control over her the way Finn did with JP.
Bib: Yes, this!
Tonight will be interesting. But I feel whatever the reaction, the opportunity to sympathise with Dean may been completely lost. Anything from here on in will look and sound like a pack of excuses, a back-tracking or it will simply make Dean's character look pathetic, immature, childish. I just don't know how they could make us feel anything for him other than 'nothing' on the one hand or 'disgust' on the other from now on.
He gave us a clue to his intentions by damning all the women in his life.
He was quite misogynistic yes but before he saw Linda with her family he seemed to show genuine emotion, vurnerability, pain, being messed up and in a state. He out his guard up again when Linda returned, misconstrued her "wanting" him and "loving" him and got offended when she was maternal towards hi when he wanted to sleep with her. Oh darn - he's seriously messed up in the head.
Tonight will be interesting. But I feel whatever the reaction, the opportunity to sympathise with Dean may been completely lost. Anything from here on in will look and sound like a pack of excuses, a back-tracking or it will simply make Dean's character look pathetic, immature, childish. I just don't know how they could make us feel anything for him other than 'nothing' on the one hand or 'disgust' on the other from now on.
We may continue to feel nothing - if he treads carefully around Linda and seems awkward/hesitant then I may have sympathy that he's delusional, I don't know. The reason I hated Finn was because it was a hate crime fuelled by homophobia, he loved having power/control over JP afterwards, continued to torture him and knew perfectly well that he had no consent as he knocked JP out with a statue and attacked him when he was on the floor. The Dean case is more complicated because he seems to think she wanted to sleep with him.
No I didn't. I find him full of self pity. The only time he seems to show any emotion, which is mostly anger, is when someone rejects him. When he raped Linda, he was cold, ruthless and truly revealed his contempt of women.
Dean wanted to humiliate Shirley. Rape is about power, humiliation, degradation and control. When Linda said she felt maternal feelings towards him he used her as an outlet for his feelings towards his mother.
But yes I had sympathy right up until he went into that kitchen, regardless of reason what he did was inexcusable.
Comments
The concept of rape can never excused, to force yourself sexually upon someone without their consent is a horrific invasion of their basic human rights. Plus...not legal.
It's rightfully abhorred and considered despicable by one and all!
BUT
That's not to suggest that we can't feel sorry for a fellow human who has sunk so low as to commit rape. Dean is not inherently a bad person, that was displayed in all of the scenes before the rape, finding out your father is not your father can affect people in different ways, his awful mother has dumped on him all his life and his time in jail (which he brought upon himself) was damning and has transformed him into what he now is. He doesn't appear to care any more about his own life and is drifting aimlessly.
The act cannot be excused or sympathized with, but what has led this man to do it, can be.
I'm so annoyed that they did this with Dean...the character is finished.
I agree.
Maybe they should have developed his obsession with Linda more and turned him into an erotomanic stalker rather than a rapist. He does seem completely different from the likes of Finn O Connor, Frank Foster etc because as you rightly said he is not inherently bad, obviously needs psychiatric help and we can see what led to it but he can never come back from such a horrendous crime.
I see parallels with the Wilmott-Brown rape 26 years ago, while he wasn't quite as an endearing character as Dean once was, but the character simply wasn't a sexual predator until Leslie Grantham decided to leave and they dreamed up the story to write him out. Wilmott-Brown was shown as someone whose business was failing, whose wife had left him and whose children he didn't see much of, Kathy sympathized with him in much the same way as Linda did last night (but without the family connection) and he, drunk as Dean was, took that to mean she wanted sex, by any means necessary.
Once the act is committed, he was a villain from then on in, showing no remorse and suggesting that the victim is lying. Dean will do the same, which is such a shame because we know he's a good person deep down, but the perpetrator of a crime of this nature will always be vilified in a TV show, you won't see any of the scenes you saw of Dean last night before the rape...only when he admits his crime and breaks down, he will deny wrongdoing for weeks.
As I say, its a shame, as I like the character of Dean, his complex nature...this plot will kill the character as the viewers will never accept him again...mind you...oh how we all love the murdering, child swapping Ronnie
Ronnie's different. She admitted what she did, gave back the baby and accepted her punishment.
I don't remember the Kathy/Vilmont case clearly but I do think that was more violent than this one - in this case I think Dean is a good person deep down but clearly delusional - I never got that vibe from Wilmont Brown.
The pictures and autumn trailer may have given me the wrong idea but it did look as though Dean was treading carefully around Linda and seemed hesitant/awkward which ties in with his delusion that they had a one night stand.
But you just said you couldn't remember it?
Wilmott-Brown in the two years before the rape was a good bloke, enjoying a friendly inter-pub rivalry with Den over the course of 1987. He was a little smug and cocksure, but you had to be if you're going to rival Dennis Watts. No inkling of impropriety until March of 88 when he takes Kathy on as a barmaid.
The difference is that we have gotten to know Dean far more as a person then we ever did WB. And the fact that he's much younger too makes it all the more stark.
I saw the actual rape episode on You Tube at one point - I remember Den finding Kathy and taking her to Pauline's house. I didn't see anything that happened before that so I don't know Wilmont that well.
BIB - I agree.
I've been racking my brain on why I felt nothing for Dean afterwards. It just left me feeling empty toward him. And it is because his actions lead to the BIB. I really did think the s/l would have stemmed from Dean's mental state. While it did, it then turned into something else. I'm not sure that is how the writer and director intended it to be but that is how it came across to me from the screen.
I have no problems associating Dean's actions with his mental state. But his actions and behaviour were borderline psychopathic that reduced Dean from being a deeply disturbed young man who had my sympathy to one who raped a woman for the sake of it because he could and he did.
I expected that given the scenes we had before the rape and before he overheard the conversation in the pub, Dean would have misread Linda's kindness and compassion for the type of love and acceptance he was looking for. As it is, they chose to have Dean overhear the conversation and he turned from a despairing man to a sadist.
I don't know if that was what they intended, but if they wanted to emphasis that Dean's actions stemmed from whatever is going on in his head, I don't think that would be most people's lasting impression of Dean.
I felt empty towards Dean too but no hate or rage because the things he said were delusional and he wasn't "violent violent".
I agree with the bits in bold and I am disappointed that they went down the path of him taking advantage because he could. Maybe if Nancy hadn't come in - if he'd broken down properly, tried to kiss her, she backed away and he lost control I might have been more saddened and sympathetic though no less shocked.
Interestingly when he first came into that kitchen, he looked exactly like he was seducing her but that was before he put her on the table.
I'm interested to see how he behaves tonight. He did seem shifty and awkward around Mick last night - one thing we know for sure is that he won't be revelling in having power and control over her the way Finn did with JP.
He was in the show for over two years previous to that.
Dean didn't come across as self pitying to me, just very damaged though that was before he saw Linda with her family and got jealous. After that I was disturbed by his jealousy and brooding and shocked when he came into the kitchen and started coming on to Linda.
Me too.
Then we come to the rape. She goes to make him some hot chocolate, a nice motherly thing to do....but that wasn't right either. Did he need to punish or control her at that point ? One thing's for sure, it wasn't love as I'd first thought. The way he just zipped up and walked out, leaving her splayed across that table...now that was cold.
Think he did a decent job myself.
Bib: Yes, this!
Tonight will be interesting. But I feel whatever the reaction, the opportunity to sympathise with Dean may been completely lost. Anything from here on in will look and sound like a pack of excuses, a back-tracking or it will simply make Dean's character look pathetic, immature, childish. I just don't know how they could make us feel anything for him other than 'nothing' on the one hand or 'disgust' on the other from now on.
He was quite misogynistic yes but before he saw Linda with her family he seemed to show genuine emotion, vurnerability, pain, being messed up and in a state. He out his guard up again when Linda returned, misconstrued her "wanting" him and "loving" him and got offended when she was maternal towards hi when he wanted to sleep with her. Oh darn - he's seriously messed up in the head.
We may continue to feel nothing - if he treads carefully around Linda and seems awkward/hesitant then I may have sympathy that he's delusional, I don't know. The reason I hated Finn was because it was a hate crime fuelled by homophobia, he loved having power/control over JP afterwards, continued to torture him and knew perfectly well that he had no consent as he knocked JP out with a statue and attacked him when he was on the floor. The Dean case is more complicated because he seems to think she wanted to sleep with him.
But yes I had sympathy right up until he went into that kitchen, regardless of reason what he did was inexcusable.