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Merlin - Series 3 discussion

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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,860
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    Reo wrote: »
    Am I the only one that hopes that nothing happens between Gwen and Lancelot? I really love Arthur and Gwen together and I don't want anything to change that.

    Ditto! :)
    I'm glad A/G love is out in the open, so surely she can't go back to being a servant, can she? What about Merlin, no way can he be just a servant either?

    I think that Merlin will still be Arthur's personal servant, but hopefully he'll be spared some of the more menial tasks from now on! I love that Arthur kissed Gwen in front of the knights and I really hope that their relationship can come out into the open soon.
    *Laura* wrote: »
    It's obvious from the script the acting and the legend that Arthur is totally besotted with Guinevere. If people think otherwise they must be watching a completely different programme, or listening to another story.

    I agree. Of course, it's all subjective to a degree. But as long as everyone agrees to respect each other's views, that's okay.
    *Laura* wrote: »
    2 - You're also doing Bradley a huge disservice by saying he's wooden when acting with Guinevere. I thought both actors were believable after all he's a future king and she's a serving girl so the whole thing is a big no-no. We saw Uther's reaction when Arthur tried to tell him he was in love with her, so it's understandable why he tried to hide his true feelings for so long.

    3 - At the moment I would say that anyone who tells us on numerous occasions that he would give up his throne for another makes it very difficult to assume that he's anything but in love with Guinevere.

    Laura, you've just crossed paths with She Who Must Not Be Named. An entity totally obsessed with Lancelot and Guinevere, who transforms into a screaming banshee whenever anyone dares to suggest that Gwen and Arthur might actually love each other. The only way to survive an attack by She Who Must Not Be Named is to avoid direct contact. ;)
    I've seen a few things with them just being Bradley and Angel and to me they get on extremely well. I don't see why or how this would translate to them not liking acting together? Those hugs say it all, Bradley always seems to bury his head in Angel's neck/shoulder I know this sounds weird but this to me is the sign of a proper hug! :D

    I've also seen interviews with Bradley and Angel - in my opinion, they share great chemistry.
    Cadiva wrote: »
    Where, exactly, has he made it explicitly clear he doesn't like the Arthur/Gwen romance?

    Personally I think you're seeing what you want to see. I find their scenes are very tender and their first kiss moment was very romantic.

    Cadiva, Bradley has NEVER made it explicit that he doesn't like the romance. He's a young man and I find it perfectly understandable that he would rather discuss sword fighting than mushy love scenes. NO ONE on this forum is Bradley James' mouthpiece and they shouldn't put themselves forward as such.
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    *Laura**Laura* Posts: 45,168
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    FelineFantastic and Cadiva: Thanks for the references. I shall enjoy finding out more about the actual legends and hopefully be knowledgeable in these debates. :)

    I would also like to say that I think the chemistry between Arthur and Guinevere has been pitched at exactly the right level. It's partly because of her that we now actually quite like Arthur. If we think back to Arthur in the earlier episodes he was a spoilt pompous brat who bossed everyone around just because he could. As we watched his friendship with Merlin grow we also saw the softer a side of him whenever Guinivere appeared. I still maintain what some people see as wooden others (like myself) see awkwardness of two characters from completely different backgrounds who really don't know what to do with their feelings.

    My favourite scene in the whole series has to be the one where he tells her "I never loved another" and she rebuffs him because she can't see any point as she can never be Queen and cuts short his argument with a curtsy and addresses him as "My Lord". It's fantastically acted by both of them and I truly believed both of the characters were heartbroken. Hats off to the writers for not having her bawling her eyes out and wailing her undying love for all the world to see.

    Even with great script writing that scene wouldn't have been so poignant if the actors involved didn't have some kind of chemistry, so kudos to both of them for making it so memorable, and more important so believable.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,743
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    Cadiva, Bradley has NEVER made it explicit that he doesn't like the romance.

    Yes he has. Numerous times.
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    margarite6666margarite6666 Posts: 2,969
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    I think they are following the gyst of the legend with the romance. The tragedy of the legend is that Arthur loves Guinevere who loves him more as the king etc. In the final of this series she says how proud she is of him and sees him as a great king.. She fell in love with Lancelot as a man and fell in love with him first. He loves her but decided not to fight for her because he loves Arthur as friend and king. As time goes on their feelings can't be denied and this is what Mordred used to destroy Camelot. Whether they go directly down this route is not known as this is more a family orientated show and they might end it on a positive note rather than follow the legend.
    As someone mentioned before they can't ignore the fact that the names Lancelot and Guinevere are conjoined and everyone knows it so it can't be ignored. Poets have always used words to demonstrate this.eg Rom-e-o and Jul-ie-et 3 syllables: Lance-e-lot and Guin-e-vere and Trist-an and Is-olde. The names run off the voice like music,.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Cadiva, Bradley has NEVER made it explicit that he doesn't like the romance. He's a young man and I find it perfectly understandable that he would rather discuss sword fighting than mushy love scenes. NO ONE on this forum is Bradley James' mouthpiece and they shouldn't put themselves forward as such.

    Yeah, that was rather the point I was getting at ;)
    Yes he has. Numerous times.

    And yet you've failed to provide ANY examples of it when I specifically asked you for them so, again, I say - where has he said this as explicitly as you claim?
    As someone mentioned before they can't ignore the fact that the names Lancelot and Guinevere are conjoined and everyone knows it so it can't be ignored.

    Of course they can ignore it. They haven't done Gawaine and the Green Knight and that's one of the main Athurian legends, they haven't done Percival's search for the Holy Grail along with Galahad (who hasn't turned up yet either), they've not done Lancelot and Elaine.

    They have had the budding romance between Gwen and Lancelot which then faded into nothing when he left Camelot. Since then Gwen has fallen for Arthur and there's nothing that says she absolutely must end up with Lancelot just because he's come back.

    This version of Merlin is re-writing the myths and legends, that's the beauty of it :)
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,693
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    *Laura* wrote: »
    FelineFantastic and Cadiva: Thanks for the references. I shall enjoy finding out more about the actual legends and hopefully be knowledgeable in these debates. :)

    I would also like to say that I think the chemistry between Arthur and Guinevere has been pitched at exactly the right level. It's partly because of her that we now actually quite like Arthur. If we think back to Arthur in the earlier episodes he was a spoilt pompous brat who bossed everyone around just because he could. As we watched his friendship with Merlin grow we also saw the softer a side of him whenever Guinivere appeared. I still maintain what some people see as wooden others (like myself) see awkwardness of two characters from completely different backgrounds who really don't know what to do with their feelings.

    My favourite scene in the whole series has to be the one where he tells her "I never loved another" and she rebuffs him because she can't see any point as she can never be Queen and cuts short his argument with a curtsy and addresses him as "My Lord". It's fantastically acted by both of them and I truly believed both of the characters were heartbroken. Hats off to the writers for not having her bawling her eyes out and wailing her undying love for all the world to see.

    Even with great script writing that scene wouldn't have been so poignant if the actors involved didn't have some kind of chemistry, so kudos to both of them for making it so memorable, and more important so believable.

    Laura- welcome and enjoy your reading!

    I too think that they have been pitching it at the right level for a couple of reasons- anything quicker would make no sense at the moment with the other storylines and also its a saturday evening family show so no heaving bosoms and bed bouncing would be appropriate! :D

    Cadiva- no there is never any actual sources provided for the outrageous claims that Jenna makes- as Mrs GHsays she is only interested in her own interpretation and thats the only interpretation that could possibly be acceptable and true!

    Also as you said they can do exactly what they want with the story- originally no Lancelot/ Gwen story existed in the myth it was added later- and as with the Green Knight etc if they want to they can! There is nothing to say what they must include.

    Mrs GH- lovely well balanced response as ever- please keep posting the sanity!! (and you Cadiva!)
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Also as you said they can do exactly what they want with the story- originally no Lancelot/ Gwen story existed in the myth it was added later- and as with the Green Knight etc if they want to they can! There is nothing to say what they must include.

    Exactly, the Guineviere/Lancelot story isn't even cannon in the legends themselves, trust those Frenchmen to want to mix it up a little sexually eh ;)
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,693
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    Exactly Cadiva!! :eek: :D

    I will be watching with interest to see what happens next and who stays around of the knights for the next series.

    So many options open to them too with Morgause and Morgana- should be exciting.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Exactly Cadiva!! :eek: :D

    I will be watching with interest to see what happens next and who stays around of the knights for the next series.

    So many options open to them too with Morgause and Morgana- should be exciting.

    I'm hoping they do follow Lancelot's story with Elaine and we find a little wee Galahad turning up at Camelot searching for his daddy along with his drop dead gorgeous mum and they become a happy little family ;)

    There's so much they could have a go at that isn't even in the original legends like they've already explored some of the Celtic myths with the Sidhe and the Welsh myths of the Great Dragon. They could look at the Unseelie and Seelie Courts because the Sidhe themselves are in conflict.

    It seems to me that they're using Merlin as the very loose basis around which to examine the myths and legends of Great Britain and Ireland as a whole, not just those specifically relating to the Arthurian Legends, which is why I get great enjoyment out of it.
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    TalmaTalma Posts: 10,520
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    Exactly, the Guineviere/Lancelot story isn't even cannon in the legends themselves, trust those Frenchmen to want to mix it up a little sexually eh ;)

    As for changing things, wasn't Bedivere one of the knights who was wiped out by something CGI last season? So much for being there at the end of the story...
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Talma wrote: »
    As for changing things, wasn't Bedivere one of the knights who was wiped out by something CGI last season? So much for being there at the end of the story...

    Indeedy, and Percival's sister is usually the bearer of the Holy Grail :)

    And, on a completely different note - Laura, if you want to read some good fiction books about the Arthurian legends then you couldn't go far wrong with Stephen Lawhead's semi-historical Pendragon Cycle (from the male point of view) and Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon (for an alternative look at the role of the women in legend).
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    DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    Indeedy, and Percival's sister is usually the bearer of the Holy Grail :)

    And, on a completely different note - Laura, if you want to read some good fiction books about the Arthurian legends then you couldn't go far wrong with Stephen Lawhead's semi-historical Pendragon Cycle (from the male point of view) and Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon (for an alternative look at the role of the women in legend).

    Mary Stewart's Merlin/Arthur quartet The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills, The Last Enchantment and The Wicked Day, are excellent too.
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    PizzatheactionPizzatheaction Posts: 20,157
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    Merlin is definitely pushed to Jan 2012, though there is also talk of a Christmas special. The BBC would have to commission that special as an extra so it's obviously not certain we'll get it.

    The reason series 4 is 10 episodes is so they can keep up the quality of the show in the face of more budget cuts. Much better to have 10 episodes of the same standard we've been getting than 13 episodes with less effects, location shoots, guest cast etc. A bonus of this is that they can tighten up the storytelling.
    Merlin's back in 2011, according to Radio Times. :)
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,587
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    I love this show, just started catchup from Ep2????

    Have to say I have the biggest crush on Bradley James :D
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 348
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    Eviesmum wrote: »
    I love this show, just started catchup from Ep2????

    Have to say I have the biggest crush on Bradley James :D

    Hands off! Although with the introduction of the latest young men on the show, you can probably have him, I'll just take Lancelot :D
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,587
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    Yep Lancelot is gorgeous too - Santiago Cabrera was in Heroes as well. Looked a lot rougher in that
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,860
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    I think they are following the gyst of the legend with the romance. The tragedy of the legend is that Arthur loves Guinevere who loves him more as the king etc. In the final of this series she says how proud she is of him and sees him as a great king.

    The Guinevere / Lancelot LEGEND has her in love with L rather than A, but in the SHOW I think it's pretty clear that she's in love with A. (It was all the passionate snogging that gave the game away... :D) And let's face it - she hardly knows L in this version.
    Also as you said they can do exactly what they want with the story- originally no Lancelot/ Gwen story existed in the myth.Mrs GH- lovely well balanced response as ever- please keep posting the sanity!! (and you Cadiva!)

    Thanks FF! I try. :)
    Your point about G and L being products of French tinkering is a really important one, I think. As the affair was not part of the original legend, why should it have to be included in this show?
    Talma wrote: »
    As for changing things, wasn't Bedivere one of the knights who was wiped out by something CGI last season? So much for being there at the end of the story...

    I noticed that too!
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    The Guinevere / Lancelot LEGEND has her in love with L rather than A, but in the SHOW I think it's pretty clear that she's in love with A. (It was all the passionate snogging that gave the game away... :D) And let's face it - she hardly knows L in this version


    Thanks FF! I try. :)
    Your point about G and L being products of French tinkering is a really important one, I think. As the affair was not part of the original legend, why should it have to be included in this show?

    I noticed that too!

    I suspect, and hope, that this version - given that it's going out at tea time (ish) on a Saturday and is aimed at family viewing - is going to have Lancelot having unrequited love for Gwen but she staying firmly in love with Arthur.
    It would be nice if they gave Lancelot Elaine but had him fall in love with her and she could already have had Galahad so we don't have to wait for him to come along, Lancelot could become his step-dad!
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    ducturductur Posts: 778
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    I suspect, and hope, that this version - given that it's going out at tea time (ish) on a Saturday and is aimed at family viewing - is going to have Lancelot having unrequited love for Gwen but she staying firmly in love with Arthur.
    It would be nice if they gave Lancelot Elaine but had him fall in love with her and she could already have had Galahad so we don't have to wait for him to come along, Lancelot could become his step-dad!

    This is my first post on this string so please be gentle with me...

    I would think, Cadiva, that this would depend on the pre-screenings. It could very well pan out the way you hope, but also develop in an entirely different direction should the writers decide it.

    I prefer to see Gwen's infatuation with Lancelot as a purely sexual thing, whilst she is most definitely in love with Arthur. She is in love with one and in lust with another; a conundrum that I am sure a lot of us have found ourselves in at one time or another. On the other hand it could just turn out to be a writers nod to the legend.

    At any rate. the series finale was yards, streets, motorways and lightyears ahead of anything so far. I have my daughter to thank for getting me hooked on this show... and yes, before you ask, I DO care about the characters...

    Am I a sad forty-something ?

    D
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    ductur wrote: »
    This is my first post on this string so please be gentle with me...

    I would think, Cadiva, that this would depend on the pre-screenings. It could very well pan out the way you hope, but also develop in an entirely different direction should the writers decide it.

    I prefer to see Gwen's infatuation with Lancelot as a purely sexual thing, whilst she is most definitely in love with Arthur. She is in love with one and in lust with another; a conundrum that I am sure a lot of us have found ourselves in at one time or another. On the other hand it could just turn out to be a writers nod to the legend.

    At any rate. the series finale was yards, streets, motorways and lightyears ahead of anything so far. I have my daughter to thank for getting me hooked on this show... and yes, before you ask, I DO care about the characters...

    Am I a sad forty-something ?

    D

    Hey :) Welcome aboard. I agree, I think Gwen definitely did have feelings for Lancelot in Series One because he was approachable and available to her as he wasn't the Prince of Camelot and, lets face it, he's easy on the eye ;)

    However, I think as he went off to do his thing, she forgot about him and her relationship with Arthur started to develop into true love and, although Lancelot came back briefly, I think his appearance in Series Two just reminded her that Arthur does love her.

    Series Three then went on to enforce the fact that Arthur does love Gwen and would give up his throne for her so I'm still holding out hope that, because of the audience Merlin is aimed at, that they'll stick with them being end game without any drama from Lancelot.

    ETA: I'm exactly 40 so if you're a sad 40-something then so I am as I love this programme.
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    soapyjoessoapyjoes Posts: 9,790
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    Yeah, that was rather the point I was getting at ;)



    And yet you've failed to provide ANY examples of it when I specifically asked you for them so, again, I say - where has he said this as explicitly as you claim?



    Of course they can ignore it. They haven't done Gawaine and the Green Knight and that's one of the main Athurian legends, they haven't done Percival's search for the Holy Grail along with Galahad (who hasn't turned up yet either), they've not done Lancelot and Elaine.

    They have had the budding romance between Gwen and Lancelot which then faded into nothing when he left Camelot. Since then Gwen has fallen for Arthur and there's nothing that says she absolutely must end up with Lancelot just because he's come back.

    This version of Merlin is re-writing the myths and legends, that's the beauty of it :)

    Very succinctly put!! Couldn't agree more:D
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    REVUpminsterREVUpminster Posts: 1,289
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    Galahad is the son of Lancelot but as the writers except for the names have completely deviated from the legend he can easily come into it but wiil he? as except for the shape of the swords the writers have completely ignored the Christian background to be politically correct?? What year is it set 500ad?. Christianity was well established in England but not organised.
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    RorschachRorschach Posts: 10,818
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    And, on a completely different note - Laura, if you want to read some good fiction books about the Arthurian legends then you couldn't go far wrong with Stephen Lawhead's semi-historical Pendragon Cycle (from the male point of view) and Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon (for an alternative look at the role of the women in legend).
    Mary Stewart's Merlin/Arthur quartet The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills, The Last Enchantment and The Wicked Day, are excellent too.

    Whilst I have read several of those, and many more besdes including The Mabinogion, I would personally recommend The Warlord Chronicles (The Winter king, Enemy of God & Excalibur) by Bernard Cornwell (he of Sharpe fame).

    They are certainly more about "greasy, waist-length beards serving as napkins, lambs bloodily sacrificed before festivals, and rampant lice" rather than Bromance and comedy being historically accurate in tone with the tale set in post-Roman Britain where pagans and christians rub against each other badly. They are however a damn fine read, contain some fantastic battle scenes and are his best works in my opinion.

    Of course the fact that Lancelot is depicted as an arrogant, cowardly, petty prince whose legend is entirely made up by his bards is a big plus point (as he has never been my favourite in the legends). Also Merlin appears as a lecherous, driven, mischievous and irreverent druid. :D
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    elven62elven62 Posts: 396
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    Have just ordered some of the book recommendations from Amazon as a pre-Christmas gift for myself!

    Thanks to those who posted reading ideas from yet another sad forty-something with a hopeless crush on Arthur.. and Gwaine... and Lancelot.. and (probably a carry over from my Buffy-watching days)...Uther :o
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    claire2281claire2281 Posts: 17,283
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    I think anyone who expects Arthur and Gwen to have a happy ending is indulging in some wishful thinking, tbh.

    It was abundantly clear last year that she loved Lancelot when they met last year and she was very upset when he left. I think her reaction in the finale was very well played - she wasn't comfortable with Arthur kissing her in front of the others but I also got the impression she was slightly annoyed with Lancelot (for leaving) yet at the same time there was some awkwardness due to her feelings.

    I definitely think she loves them both but I always get the impression somehow that part of her love for Arthur is for what he is - the noble king she keeps trying to make him in to. Her love for Lancelot strikes me as more personal somehow.

    To me it seems rather obvious that they're going down the route of Gwen makes Arthur a good king, but that doesn't make him a good husband hence she can't eventually resist the feelings she still holds for Lancelot. For his part, he'll be all noble about it right up until the point when they give in.
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