So the pink blanket went missing, the blue bag Gerry owned(allegedly) went missing, cuddle cat got moved and then washed of any fragrance left of Maddy, also she didnt own a toothbrush so Dna could be given?and a fridge was replaced for some reason? very strange case this has been from day one........
To me, all these tabloid headlines are ridiculously counter-productive.
If the police really have new clues, they should act on them without informing the press first.
If (and it's a big IF) there is an abducter, the police shouldn't tip them off well in advance, giving them ample time to scarper or potentially kill her.
Some body did die in apartment 5A I believe the dogs Eddie alerted to cadaver sent and Keela alerted to the blood under the tile,why did Panorama say it was DNA and not what the dogs are trained for.I would have thought the police could have demanded a reconstruction with all parties present,that would be enough to reopen the case then again can not understand parents and friends not offering to do one I know Kate and Gerry as arguidos could not refuse but very odd of the friends not to go back for a little vulnerable girl.But to me it's always about the fund not a charity but a private fund for the the family to use any way they want,and still there is no forensic evidence of a abductor entering 5A.
That is not a "myth" they could not give the police Maddy's DNA as they all shared a toothbrush seemingly uggghhh. also i remember they could not give her hair sample from a hairbrush/comb as she didnt have one of those either?! maybe they didnt want to give the DNA of hair for some reason or they all shared the same brush also..
That is not a "myth" they could not give the police Maddy's DNA as they all shared a toothbrush seemingly uggghhh. also i remember they could not give her hair sample from a hairbrush/comb as she didnt have one of those either?! maybe they didnt want to give the DNA of hair for some reason or they all shared the same brush also..
Seemingly so many things these parents didn’t want to do, all started by not wanting to stay home with their kids.
Never mind about sharing a tooth brush and hair brush especially don't believe they shared a tooth brush,why wasn't Madeleine's clothes that she had worn on the last day offered for DNA, so many thing's not adding up.
For all you folks who place so much credence on the dogs going woof woof - why why why is there no sustantive forensic evidence in each of the locations? This is the question - the only one that matters? It will be the one the police will have spent their time on - answers on a postcard please!
Or or shall I say should have spent time on rather than briefing media on factually incorrect forensic conclusions. It was this briefing that set the british media in such direct conflict with Portuguese police. They made that blatently clear at Leveson enquiry a few weeks ago - furious at being made scapegoats for only repeating what they were being fed. Annoyed that Leics Police had not 'off the record' briefed them on the correct facts.
Because Eddie, as has been said many times, alerts to scent. It is perfectly possible for a body to be in a position to leave odour but no physical trace.
I suppose you may find it more scientifically reassuring if a Forensic Science person rolled up with a big black box that could bip and flash a light if it detected and isolated an odour, but it would still not be half as sensitive as the black box of the dogs.
So the pink blanket went missing, the blue bag Gerry owned(allegedly) went missing, cuddle cat got moved and then washed of any fragrance left of Maddy, also she didnt own a toothbrush so Dna could be given?and a fridge was replaced for some reason? very strange case this has been from day one........
Yes its all the drip drip drip of oddities , Its not one single thing that made people sit up and ask questions .Its the layers od oddities, unanswered question , the coverage , the involvment of the PM ,the British police , the Pope etc etc etc etc that makes me very very suspicious of the whole sorry saga .
Although I except that we are all different a WTF moment for me was that they both swaned off around the world leaving two toddlers who had lost a sister with others and into a creche every day . It baffled me and most people I know as the gut instinct would be to chain them to your person and never let go again .,
One of the WTF moments for me was when they displayed Maddie's pyjamas but said they were actually an exact replica that her sister was wearing (albeit far to big for her!). Out of the mouths of babes, Amelie said "Maddie's Jamas" or similar.
Obviously, some Mums buy exactly the same pj's for their children, but it's certainly not something I've ever thought about doing for my 3 kids (and I've got identical twins!)
So logic says that the pyjamas were Maddies, and she was obviously not wearing them when she was 'abducted'.
She could have been killed by a stranger in the apartment. Imagine it - someone gets in and scoops up Madeleine. How does he keep her quiet if she stirs? A hand over her face? A pillow? Clutch her to his chest? She suffocates. He takes the little girl's body away.perhas not even realising that she's dead. That would account for the dog alerts. It's as possible as the idea that her parents klled her - and probably more likely.
I believe that cadaver scent takes something like 90 minutes to develop, so unless there'd been a corpse in the apartment for some time before being removed, the cadaver dog (Eddie) wouldn't have made an alert. If his alert was accurate, there needed to be a dead body in that apartment (or items that left the scent of human death) for over an hour. Given that Gerry McCann claims he saw Madeleine alive at 9.10pm, and Kate says she discovered she was missing at 10pm, the cadaver scent dog's alert doesn't make sense, unless Madeleine had died before 9pm.
I thought this was one of the most balanced programmes on the Mccann mystery I had seen for a long time.
I understand exactly how Gocalo must have felt writing that book now. The desire to clear his name must have been immense.
I understand how they came to the conclusion that someone must have died in that apartment following them showing the video of the dogs at work.
We all know how dogs are non political and don't lie, It was especially weird learning how they signalled at the Mccann's hire car which was rented AFTER her disapearance
That was really strange. Its a shame that the results of the fluids found in the car were in fact inconclusive as I really feel that if they investigated these again they could bring closure. Perhaps send some samples off too america where they have a different standard of 'proof'.
I thought Redwood did scotland yard well by keeping quiet about their progress. I really hope that there is a big result from this investigation after the incredible result from the Stephen Lawrence Case. They should be on a role not getting Justice where it is.
I didn't realise Goncalo's book 'the truth of the lie' was based upon the files and is a 'best-seller', it must be explosive! I'm going to have to get myself a copy.
Wasn't one of the major discrepancies in the case against the McAnns the fact that this rented car wasn't hired until weeks after Maddie disappeared?
I'm not sure it was part of the discrepancie after the panorama programme which said that they may have used the car to transport the body. When they tested the fluid in the back of the car the FSS Released a report available online in the police files that the DNA tested matched 15 markers of Madelaines DNA.
Under Portugese law they require 19 markers for a conclusive result on a DNA analysis, therefore the sample from the boot of the car was deemed inconclusive because there was only 15.
However In america a 13 match is considered conclusive so you can postulate that if the test was done in the USA they would have been able to conclusively say it was Madeline.
What we do know is where the USA leads, Europe follows. This is part of the reason why the EU is a good thing so that standardisation can occur across all countries.
She could have been killed by a stranger in the apartment. Imagine it - someone gets in and scoops up Madeleine. How does he keep her quiet if she stirs? A hand over her face? A pillow? Clutch her to his chest? She suffocates. He takes the little girl's body away.perhas not even realising that she's dead. That would account for the dog alerts. It's as possible as the idea that her parents klled her - and probably more likely.
I don`t think you`ll find it is possible because cadaver odour isn`t released immediately - IIRC from what Martin Smith said, it takes at least 90 mins - 2 hrs.
Because Eddie, as has been said many times, alerts to scent. It is perfectly possible for a body to be in a position to leave odour but no physical trace.
I suppose you may find it more scientifically reassuring if a Forensic Science person rolled up with a big black box that could bip and flash a light if it detected and isolated an odour, but it would still not be half as sensitive as the black box of the dogs.
Bangs head against a brick wall.........
BUT.... you have no proof of what they were alerting to exactly what their handler said actually.
How about cadaver scent being placed in each of the places as a set up!! Its just as plausible as all these alerts & no substantive forensic evidence.
I really struggle with how folks are so blindly led off down the route of the dogs - too much CSI I think!!
These dogs are highly trained, specialist pieces of kit. They are being used all over the world, by the FBI and whatever the FBI-ey local evivalent it. Martin Grimes was testifying in America with regard to a case only this month.
There, for some reason in this case, seems to a polarised view that if the McCanns are innocent then the dogs have to be wrong - but is that really the case.
Just suppose that both are right. What then?
I doubt very much that Martin Smith, who has spent years training these dogs and built up such a good reputation - he is hardly going to risk his reputation and that of his dogs by getting things wrong - he`d never get any more work.
I shall say no more, I am new, love this place & don't want to get banned.
Well I for one have always found him slimy and creepy and sinister and would'nt trust him as far as I could throw him. I don't feel that way about her though. Perhaps she is a woman controlled I have always seen her grief as genuine but not his.
Because Eddie, as has been said many times, alerts to scent. It is perfectly possible for a body to be in a position to leave odour but no physical trace.
I suppose you may find it more scientifically reassuring if a Forensic Science person rolled up with a big black box that could bip and flash a light if it detected and isolated an odour, but it would still not be half as sensitive as the black box of the dogs.
One of the WTF moments for me was when they displayed Maddie's pyjamas but said they were actually an exact replica that her sister was wearing (albeit far to big for her!). Out of the mouths of babes, Amelie said "Maddie's Jamas" or similar.
Obviously, some Mums buy exactly the same pj's for their children, but it's certainly not something I've ever thought about doing for my 3 kids (and I've got identical twins!)
So logic says that the pyjamas were Maddies, and she was obviously not wearing them when she was 'abducted'.
BUT.... you have no proof of what they were alerting to exactly what their handler said actually.
How about cadaver scent being placed in each of the places as a set up!! Its just as plausible as all these alerts & no substantive forensic evidence.
I really struggle with how folks are so blindly led off down the route of the dogs - too much CSI I think!!
Stuart Prior then calls FSS asking if they thought the Portuguese were idiots. He was heard saying that in the UK he had arrested people for less. So what where the FSS testing ?
I doubt very much that Martin Smith, who has spent years training these dogs and built up such a good reputation - he is hardly going to risk his reputation and that of his dogs by getting things wrong - he`d never get any more work.
he is quite clear that an alert cannot be trusted unless there is evidence to back it up.
What was particularly bad about the Panorama programme was the obvious zenophobia towards the Portuguese, editing Goncalo Amaral`s interview to show him negatively and obviously cutting out the bit about exactly why the investigation was sabotaged and by whom. The poor PJ didn`t stand a chance with all the media and political interference at that time. Google Joana Morais website to see the latest TV interview with Goncalo, which is in the process of being translated. Portugal have spent millions on this case and put in more man hours and expertise than on any other case. Yet we see our media constantly dissing them - its horrendous.
Under Portugese law they require 19 markers for a conclusive result on a DNA analysis, therefore the sample from the boot of the car was deemed inconclusive because there was only 15.
However In america a 13 match is considered conclusive so you can postulate that if the test was done in the USA they would have been able to conclusively say it was Madeline.
.
i forget the details, but as i recall, the samples contained the DNA of between 3 and 5 people. therefore although it contained 15 markers the same as Madeleine, it couldn't be said where those actually came from.
and when these samples were all taken from places that her entire family had been then clearly it seems much more likely that they came from them (although as I understand it, many many people would share some markers in common, and the FSS actually pointed it out that lab staff did).
What was particularly bad about the Panorama programme was the obvious zenophobia towards the Portuguese, editing Goncalo Amaral`s interview to show him negatively and obviously cutting out the bit about exactly why the investigation was sabotaged and by whom. The poor PJ didn`t stand a chance with all the media and political interference at that time. Google Joana Morais website to see the latest TV interview with Goncalo, which is in the process of being translated. Portugal have spent millions on this case and put in more man hours and expertise than on any other case. Yet we see our media constantly dissing them - its horrendous.
well, amaral is a convicted criminal. in my opinion it was a great mistake to have him on the case at all as he tainted everything about it.
BUT.... you have no proof of what they were alerting to exactly what their handler said actually.
How about cadaver scent being placed in each of the places as a set up!! Its just as plausible as all these alerts & no substantive forensic evidence.
I really struggle with how folks are so blindly led off down the route of the dogs - too much CSI I think!!
If we are going down that route then bangs head against brick wall
If someone had picked their handy big jar of cadaverine* off the shelf and planted evidence then
The dogs were altering to what they are trained too.
Again, until the alerts are contextualised then they remain as what they are. Alerts that happened that need context - what is so wrong with thinking that and that they shouldn't be dismissed just because we don't understand that context yet
(* disclaimer - I don't believe that for a minute. At the time the dogs were deployed there were others more fit up worthy than the parents. I think the alerts took more than one by surprise)
Comments
She 'didn't own a toothbrush'?
I've never heard that. Bloody hell.
If the police really have new clues, they should act on them without informing the press first.
If (and it's a big IF) there is an abducter, the police shouldn't tip them off well in advance, giving them ample time to scarper or potentially kill her.
Seriously, what good is it meant to achieve?
That is not a "myth" they could not give the police Maddy's DNA as they all shared a toothbrush seemingly uggghhh. also i remember they could not give her hair sample from a hairbrush/comb as she didnt have one of those either?! maybe they didnt want to give the DNA of hair for some reason or they all shared the same brush also..
Seemingly so many things these parents didn’t want to do, all started by not wanting to stay home with their kids.
There's a site with a less sensational approach, more debate.
google "jill havern forum"
Because Eddie, as has been said many times, alerts to scent. It is perfectly possible for a body to be in a position to leave odour but no physical trace.
I suppose you may find it more scientifically reassuring if a Forensic Science person rolled up with a big black box that could bip and flash a light if it detected and isolated an odour, but it would still not be half as sensitive as the black box of the dogs.
Yes its all the drip drip drip of oddities , Its not one single thing that made people sit up and ask questions .Its the layers od oddities, unanswered question , the coverage , the involvment of the PM ,the British police , the Pope etc etc etc etc that makes me very very suspicious of the whole sorry saga .
Although I except that we are all different a WTF moment for me was that they both swaned off around the world leaving two toddlers who had lost a sister with others and into a creche every day . It baffled me and most people I know as the gut instinct would be to chain them to your person and never let go again .,
Obviously, some Mums buy exactly the same pj's for their children, but it's certainly not something I've ever thought about doing for my 3 kids (and I've got identical twins!)
So logic says that the pyjamas were Maddies, and she was obviously not wearing them when she was 'abducted'.
I believe that cadaver scent takes something like 90 minutes to develop, so unless there'd been a corpse in the apartment for some time before being removed, the cadaver dog (Eddie) wouldn't have made an alert. If his alert was accurate, there needed to be a dead body in that apartment (or items that left the scent of human death) for over an hour. Given that Gerry McCann claims he saw Madeleine alive at 9.10pm, and Kate says she discovered she was missing at 10pm, the cadaver scent dog's alert doesn't make sense, unless Madeleine had died before 9pm.
I understand exactly how Gocalo must have felt writing that book now. The desire to clear his name must have been immense.
I understand how they came to the conclusion that someone must have died in that apartment following them showing the video of the dogs at work.
We all know how dogs are non political and don't lie, It was especially weird learning how they signalled at the Mccann's hire car which was rented AFTER her disapearance
That was really strange. Its a shame that the results of the fluids found in the car were in fact inconclusive as I really feel that if they investigated these again they could bring closure. Perhaps send some samples off too america where they have a different standard of 'proof'.
I thought Redwood did scotland yard well by keeping quiet about their progress. I really hope that there is a big result from this investigation after the incredible result from the Stephen Lawrence Case. They should be on a role not getting Justice where it is.
I didn't realise Goncalo's book 'the truth of the lie' was based upon the files and is a 'best-seller', it must be explosive! I'm going to have to get myself a copy.
I'm not sure it was part of the discrepancie after the panorama programme which said that they may have used the car to transport the body. When they tested the fluid in the back of the car the FSS Released a report available online in the police files that the DNA tested matched 15 markers of Madelaines DNA.
Under Portugese law they require 19 markers for a conclusive result on a DNA analysis, therefore the sample from the boot of the car was deemed inconclusive because there was only 15.
However In america a 13 match is considered conclusive so you can postulate that if the test was done in the USA they would have been able to conclusively say it was Madeline.
What we do know is where the USA leads, Europe follows. This is part of the reason why the EU is a good thing so that standardisation can occur across all countries.
.
I don`t think you`ll find it is possible because cadaver odour isn`t released immediately - IIRC from what Martin Smith said, it takes at least 90 mins - 2 hrs.
Bangs head against a brick wall.........
BUT.... you have no proof of what they were alerting to exactly what their handler said actually.
How about cadaver scent being placed in each of the places as a set up!! Its just as plausible as all these alerts & no substantive forensic evidence.
I really struggle with how folks are so blindly led off down the route of the dogs - too much CSI I think!!
I doubt very much that Martin Smith, who has spent years training these dogs and built up such a good reputation - he is hardly going to risk his reputation and that of his dogs by getting things wrong - he`d never get any more work.
Well I for one have always found him slimy and creepy and sinister and would'nt trust him as far as I could throw him. I don't feel that way about her though. Perhaps she is a woman controlled I have always seen her grief as genuine but not his.
But its not just the dogs is it? I tend to view the dogs` alerts as just one more thing in the long list of things that don`t add up.
Stuart Prior then calls FSS asking if they thought the Portuguese were idiots. He was heard saying that in the UK he had arrested people for less. So what where the FSS testing ?
he is quite clear that an alert cannot be trusted unless there is evidence to back it up.
i forget the details, but as i recall, the samples contained the DNA of between 3 and 5 people. therefore although it contained 15 markers the same as Madeleine, it couldn't be said where those actually came from.
and when these samples were all taken from places that her entire family had been then clearly it seems much more likely that they came from them (although as I understand it, many many people would share some markers in common, and the FSS actually pointed it out that lab staff did).
well, amaral is a convicted criminal. in my opinion it was a great mistake to have him on the case at all as he tainted everything about it.
If we are going down that route
If someone had picked their handy big jar of cadaverine* off the shelf and planted evidence then
The dogs were altering to what they are trained too.
Again, until the alerts are contextualised then they remain as what they are. Alerts that happened that need context - what is so wrong with thinking that and that they shouldn't be dismissed just because we don't understand that context yet
(* disclaimer - I don't believe that for a minute. At the time the dogs were deployed there were others more fit up worthy than the parents. I think the alerts took more than one by surprise)