I have no clue what the correct title for the relavent authority is. Social Services, community teams, health visitors. Whatever.
I was just asking if there IS any kind of scheme available for new parents.
I agree that there's always the issue that you don't know what you don't know, so to speak, but if you're a new mother and you're on valium for post-natal depression and you're having to drink alcohol to get to sleep at 4am then the chances are that you'd be willing to take any kind of advice that was available.
Course, if there IS such a scheme and people who're in that state still decide not to bother with it then I guess I stand corrected.
We don't know who she was in contact with. However the baby was only 7? weeks old, so she would still be very much in contact with the health visitor.
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make, so I'm not sure what the 'stand corrected' bit refers to.
Seems like you always hear about social services discovering abused kids and taking them into care etc.
The thought of that is going to cause almost ANY parent, however inept, to try and hide their shortcomings from the authorities.
Perhaps if there was a less judgemental face to social services it'd encourage more parents to seek advice and assistance and it'd prevent stuff like this happening?
My heart goes out to these young parents and their families. I too have left my wee ones (all those years ago) to sleep on the settee while catching up with chores, not necessarily in the same room but always popping back and forth to make sure they were ok. I have even done the same thing with my 2 wee grandchildren. In my mummy days the babies slept on their stomaches. RIP wee one. I hope the family are given every help and support and they manage to get through this and move on. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
We don't know who she was in contact with. However the baby was only 7? weeks old, so she would still be very much in contact with the health visitor.
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make, so I'm not sure what the 'stand corrected' bit refers to.
I wasn't making any point.
I was asking whether there's any kind of "idiots guide to parenting" course available to new parents in the UK.
The "stand corrected" bit refers to the possibility that there IS such a scheme in existence and that these parents have failed to take advantage of it even though they were obviously in dire need of it.
I wasn't making any point.
I was asking whether there's any kind of "idiots guide to parenting" course available to new parents in the UK.
The "stand corrected" bit refers to the possibility that there IS such a scheme in existence and that these parents have failed to take advantage of it even though they were obviously in dire need of it.
Why were they in dire need of it? This thread has shown that an amazing amount of people have done the same thing and these parents were just incredibly unlucky.
Maybe a national campaign is needed, one hasn't been done for a while.
Frankly you're coming across on the wrong side of judgemental.
Why were they in dire need of it? This thread has shown that an amazing amount of people have done the same thing and these parents were just incredibly unlucky.
Maybe a national campaign is needed, one hasn't been done for a while.
Frankly you're coming across on the wrong side of judgemental.
I'm simply basing my opinion on the fact that the mother was, apparently, on valium and felt the need to also drink to get to sleep.
Any way you slice it, that's more than just bad luck.
Beyond that, though, I'm still waiting for somebody to actually tell me if there IS such a scheme or not.
would lead your average person to believe that you thought there was neglect but the loss of their child is punishment enough to mitigate it.... something very different to the actual facts.
your post says however that they should be made to pay for their neglect There was no neglect just bloody unlucky
Yes I've read my original post again and it's not as clear as I thought.
At first when I read the OP, I thought it would be a case of neglect, which I'm sure is a conclusion that many jumped to first also. However, after reading the article I agree that it doesn't seem like neglect was involved (although the whole Valium thing doesn't sit well with me - although I suppose we can't just take the Daily Mail's word for it)
I said in my previous post that I was going to write that they should pay...etc. ie 'here's what i thought but not so sure now'. But yes, the post is not clear. Apologies.
I'm simply basing my opinion on the fact that the mother was, apparently, on valium and felt the need to also drink to get to sleep.
Any way you slice it, that's more than just bad luck.
Beyond that, though, I'm still waiting for somebody to actually tell me if there IS such a scheme or not.
I've told you several times that health visitors are there for support for new parents.
Are you suggesting that they needed educating on the drink/drugs aspect?
They would have no doubt known that it is not recommended but the drugs were prescribed, so obviously at least one medical professional thought the benefits outweighed the risks.
Well you see... the parents might have simply been ignorant due to inexperience and thought it as safe as the cot.... It wasnt down to negligence
its one of the big things you are told never give a child under one year a cushion or pillow it is on the labels to a lot of bedding moses baskets as well, midwifes and health visitors always mention it too
I'm simply basing my opinion on the fact that the mother was, apparently, on valium and felt the need to also drink to get to sleep.
Any way you slice it, that's more than just bad luck.
Beyond that, though, I'm still waiting for somebody to actually tell me if there IS such a scheme or not.
Where does it say she drunk alcohol to get to sleep?
I know the Daily Mail like to put their own venomous spin on things, but the facts are that this woman (who had previously served two years in jail for causing her sisters death by reckless driving) and her partner left their seven week old daughter to sleep on a cushion on the sofa and she suffocated. The woman also admitted 'I should've put her in the Moses basket, I know, but I always put her on the settee and she has always been fine.'
I am surprised they haven't been prosecuted for child neglect, they repeatedly put her at risk and she was only seven weeks old when she died.
I would normally have all the sympathy in the world for a couple who lost their baby, but this amount of ignorance and incompetence just makes me feel angry. I just hope that if they pro-create again, social services keep a very close eye on them.
Reading this:-
Seven-week-old Kodi Sarah Wall was placed in an 'unsafe sleeping environment,' a pathologist told an inquest at Barrow, Cumbria.
The coroner warned parents that a settee was a 'very unsafe' place for babies to sleep.
Kodi's mum, Samantha Louise Wall, put her to sleep on the living room settee, on top of a cushion resting against the sofa arm.
Makes me feel very sorry for them, because being totally honest, I wouldn't have had a blind clue that there was anything amiss with a baby going to sleep in such a seemingly innocuous position.
But apparently......
Pathologist Doctor Alison Armer, who carried out the autopsy, said a baby 'should be placed on their back or side, on their own, in a cot or another appropriate sleeping environment'.
Dr Armer, who said the circumstances surrounding the death did not match her autopsy findings, told the inquest: 'I find it very difficult to understand how a seven-week-old baby is put to sleep propped up.
'A baby of that age cannot support its own weight and, in particular, the weight of its head.
'It's my opinion this baby has died as a result of being placed in an unsafe sleeping environment
.
I wonder how many new parents are made aware of "inappropriate sleeping environments" in ante natal classes ?
Given that I have no idea what role a health visitor plays, you'll have to excuse me for not knowing what their job entails.
I assume that part of their job IS to provide an "idiots guide to parenting" rather than just check on the welfare of the baby?
fgs si
you are given lots and lots of literature, there are antenatal classes where you are encouraged to ask questions. You are asked to complete questionnaires and stuff when the midwife/health visitor visit. They show you how to bath the baby etc. if you want.
It's case to case isn't it. You get as much help and support as you need or want. They are on the end of a phone if you need.
If you haven't had a child then it's probably prudent that you don't make assumptions regarding the care/support offered.
None of this alters the fact that a baby died whilst both it's parents were awake in the same room. It might have been avoidable but it was nothing more than a tragic accident that could be repeated by any parents at any time - even shock horror non drug taking ones.
I wonder how many new parents are made aware of "inappropriate sleeping environments" in ante natal classes ?
As far as I remember they do cover that but maybe a new campaign is needed - us older mums remembered all the stuff from the 90's, there's maybe a whole generation who missed out on all the cot death awareness stuff.
its one of the big things you are told never give a child under one year a cushion or pillow it is on the labels to a lot of bedding moses baskets as well, midwifes and health visitors always mention it too
But was ithe baby given the cushion as a pillow? As reading it makes it sound like the baby was laying on the cushion, not using is as a pillow IE head prop up on it
Where does it say she drunk alcohol to get to sleep?
The article says she drank 3 cans of beer in the evening.
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, of course.
Maybe she's just irresponsible and prefers alcohol to babies.
Any way you slice it, mixing valium and alcohol with a newborn baby in the house is asking for trouble and it'd be nice if parents were councelled about that sort of thing, especially in cases where it's known that the mother IS on valium for post-natal depression.
Course, for all I know, maybe they already are but if that's the case then this ex-mother is less deserving of sympathy than I assumed.
Yes I've read my original post again and it's not as clear as I thought.
At first when I read the OP, I thought it would be a case of neglect, which I'm sure is a conclusion that many jumped to first also. However, after reading the article I agree that it doesn't seem like neglect was involved (although the whole Valium thing doesn't sit well with me - although I suppose we can't just take the Daily Mail's word for it)
I said in my previous post that I was going to write that they should pay...etc. ie 'here's what i thought but not so sure now'. But yes, the post is not clear. Apologies.
The article says she drank 3 cans of beer in the evening.
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, of course.
Maybe she's just irresponsible and prefers alcohol to babies.
Any way you slice it, mixing valium and alcohol with a newborn baby in the house is asking for trouble and it'd be nice if parents were councelled about that sort of thing, especially in cases where it's known that the mother IS on valium for post-natal depression.
Course, for all I know, maybe they already are but if that's the case then this ex-mother is less deserving of sympathy than I assumed.
How cruel.
The father was there too, is there any evidence that he was taking prescription drugs?
The baby died of suffocation, it had the sum of nothing to do with the mothers intake of drink or drugs.
You are coming across as so determined to prove your point that any empathy towards the loss of a child has been lost. Now that is sad.
you are given lots and lots of literature, there are antenatal classes where you are encouraged to ask questions. You are asked to complete questionnaires and stuff when the midwife/health visitor visit. They show you how to bath the baby etc. if you want.
It's case to case isn't it. You get as much help and support as you need or want. They are on the end of a phone if you need.
If you haven't had a child then it's probably prudent that you don't make assumptions regarding the care/support offered.
None of this alters the fact that a baby died whilst both it's parents were awake in the same room. It might have been avoidable but it was nothing more than a tragic accident that could be repeated by any parents at any time - even shock horror non drug taking ones.
Parent or not, I wouldn't mix alcohol and pills if I was looking after a pet, never mind a baby.
Thing is, I'm prepared to accept that there ARE people who might not realise this is a silly thing to do, which was why I was wondering if she would have received advice about it.
"Dr Armer, who said the circumstances surrounding the death did not match her autopsy findings, told the inquest: 'I find it very difficult to understand how a seven-week-old baby is put to sleep propped up.
'A baby of that age cannot support its own weight and, in particular, the weight of its head.
'It's my opinion this baby has died as a result of being placed in an unsafe sleeping environment"
The bit in bold is very telling. It suggests that the story as the parents told it isn't actually true.
The article says she drank 3 cans of beer in the evening.
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, of course. Maybe she's just irresponsible and prefers alcohol to babies.
Any way you slice it, mixing valium and alcohol with a newborn baby in the house is asking for trouble and it'd be nice if parents were councelled about that sort of thing, especially in cases where it's known that the mother IS on valium for post-natal depression.
Course, for all I know, maybe they already are but if that's the case then this ex-mother is less deserving of sympathy than I assumed.
Or maybe she hadn't slept properly for many weeks, was exhausted, not thinking clearly as a result, and was desperate for sleep. Having suffered from insomnia myself, I'd know exactly where she was coming from.
I'm a human being and a parent myself, I think it's pretty natural to feel sympathy. I'm also of a reasonable enough intelligence to see that the dangerous driving conviction and drink/drugs issues are being cynically thrown into the story to demonize the mother when they apparently have absolutely jack shit to do with this terrible accident.
Comments
We don't know who she was in contact with. However the baby was only 7? weeks old, so she would still be very much in contact with the health visitor.
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make, so I'm not sure what the 'stand corrected' bit refers to.
quoted for truth.
Ignorance and or incompetence don't lessen my sympathy. Cruelty does, or rather some of my sympathy shifts to feel sorry for them being cruel.
I wasn't making any point.
I was asking whether there's any kind of "idiots guide to parenting" course available to new parents in the UK.
The "stand corrected" bit refers to the possibility that there IS such a scheme in existence and that these parents have failed to take advantage of it even though they were obviously in dire need of it.
Why were they in dire need of it? This thread has shown that an amazing amount of people have done the same thing and these parents were just incredibly unlucky.
Maybe a national campaign is needed, one hasn't been done for a while.
Frankly you're coming across on the wrong side of judgemental.
I'm simply basing my opinion on the fact that the mother was, apparently, on valium and felt the need to also drink to get to sleep.
Any way you slice it, that's more than just bad luck.
Beyond that, though, I'm still waiting for somebody to actually tell me if there IS such a scheme or not.
At first when I read the OP, I thought it would be a case of neglect, which I'm sure is a conclusion that many jumped to first also. However, after reading the article I agree that it doesn't seem like neglect was involved (although the whole Valium thing doesn't sit well with me - although I suppose we can't just take the Daily Mail's word for it)
I said in my previous post that I was going to write that they should pay...etc. ie 'here's what i thought but not so sure now'. But yes, the post is not clear. Apologies.
I've told you several times that health visitors are there for support for new parents.
Are you suggesting that they needed educating on the drink/drugs aspect?
They would have no doubt known that it is not recommended but the drugs were prescribed, so obviously at least one medical professional thought the benefits outweighed the risks.
its one of the big things you are told never give a child under one year a cushion or pillow it is on the labels to a lot of bedding moses baskets as well, midwifes and health visitors always mention it too
Fair enough.
Given that I have no idea what role a health visitor plays, you'll have to excuse me for not knowing what their job entails.
I assume that part of their job IS to provide an "idiots guide to parenting" rather than just check on the welfare of the baby?
Where does it say she drunk alcohol to get to sleep?
Reading this:-
Makes me feel very sorry for them, because being totally honest, I wouldn't have had a blind clue that there was anything amiss with a baby going to sleep in such a seemingly innocuous position.
But apparently......
.
I wonder how many new parents are made aware of "inappropriate sleeping environments" in ante natal classes ?
fgs si
you are given lots and lots of literature, there are antenatal classes where you are encouraged to ask questions. You are asked to complete questionnaires and stuff when the midwife/health visitor visit. They show you how to bath the baby etc. if you want.
It's case to case isn't it. You get as much help and support as you need or want. They are on the end of a phone if you need.
If you haven't had a child then it's probably prudent that you don't make assumptions regarding the care/support offered.
None of this alters the fact that a baby died whilst both it's parents were awake in the same room. It might have been avoidable but it was nothing more than a tragic accident that could be repeated by any parents at any time - even shock horror non drug taking ones.
As far as I remember they do cover that but maybe a new campaign is needed - us older mums remembered all the stuff from the 90's, there's maybe a whole generation who missed out on all the cot death awareness stuff.
But was ithe baby given the cushion as a pillow? As reading it makes it sound like the baby was laying on the cushion, not using is as a pillow IE head prop up on it
The article says she drank 3 cans of beer in the evening.
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, of course.
Maybe she's just irresponsible and prefers alcohol to babies.
Any way you slice it, mixing valium and alcohol with a newborn baby in the house is asking for trouble and it'd be nice if parents were councelled about that sort of thing, especially in cases where it's known that the mother IS on valium for post-natal depression.
Course, for all I know, maybe they already are but if that's the case then this ex-mother is less deserving of sympathy than I assumed.
Ahh OK fair enough :-)
How cruel.
The father was there too, is there any evidence that he was taking prescription drugs?
The baby died of suffocation, it had the sum of nothing to do with the mothers intake of drink or drugs.
You are coming across as so determined to prove your point that any empathy towards the loss of a child has been lost. Now that is sad.
Parent or not, I wouldn't mix alcohol and pills if I was looking after a pet, never mind a baby.
Thing is, I'm prepared to accept that there ARE people who might not realise this is a silly thing to do, which was why I was wondering if she would have received advice about it.
'A baby of that age cannot support its own weight and, in particular, the weight of its head.
'It's my opinion this baby has died as a result of being placed in an unsafe sleeping environment"
The bit in bold is very telling. It suggests that the story as the parents told it isn't actually true.
Or maybe she hadn't slept properly for many weeks, was exhausted, not thinking clearly as a result, and was desperate for sleep. Having suffered from insomnia myself, I'd know exactly where she was coming from.
Maybe those critics who are parents were lucky rather than perfect.
That's not my intent.
It just seems that it'd be a practical benefit to other parents in the same situation if they were made aware of the inherent dangers.
If they are then great. If they're not then perhaps they should be.