So I was thinking, what with them going off to France, it's all a bit Abelard and Heloise.
He "the keenest thinker and boldest theologian of the 12th Century", she "a brilliant scholar... nominatissima (most renowned)... known throughout Western Europe for her scholarship".
He was born in 1079, she in 1101, so over 20yrs difference. It's funny, it's one of the great romantic stories, whereas this is a dirty scandal.
No, I am not making snide insinuations, I am out and out stating that if someone thinks, and I quote from the post I directly responded to, "What counts is whether this young girl... is actually being harmed at all by all of this. I'm not convinced she is, or that if she is, that the harm is any more than is involved in the sort of relationship any average 15 year old would be involved in with a boy her age." they have, at best, a lack of judgement and I would not want someone like that in a position of trust.
That wasn't the quoted post you responded to though I think. I get what you mean to an extent, but I also appreciate the 'best interests' thing the poster was on about, even if it was a little too liberal for my taste.
As someone who has also been a 15 year old girl, I was very mature for my age at that time, and whilst I can appreciate this kind of relationship can and is harmful, I'm not sure how much damage it may have done me in that situation. I was more than capable of declining the interests of older men and wasn't overly flattered just because they were older.
One person's life experience isn't a yardstick for all others (yes I know you didn't exactly say that) but the power difference in this relationship is obviously a major concern, I would still rather have as many facts as possible before forming a full judgement.
Perhaps because there have been very few 'she wants it so whats wrong with that' type posts. Some people have questioned the age of consent and other areas of discussion but there have been very few posters that haven't condemned the teacher in this case.
There have been a fair few that have skirted very near to saying that, which leaves the rest of us to draw our own conclusions as to how they view young teenage girls.
So I was thinking, what with them going off to France, it's all a bit Abelard and Heloise.
He "the keenest thinker and boldest theologian of the 12th Century", she "a brilliant scholar... nominatissima (most renowned)... known throughout Western Europe for her scholarship".
He was born in 1079, she in 1101, so over 20yrs difference. It's funny, it's one of the great romantic stories, whereas this is a dirty scandal.
Hope it ended well , Waterloo Road rarely does, apparantly .
No, I am not making snide insinuations, I am out and out stating that if someone thinks, and I quote from the post I directly responded to, "What counts is whether this young girl... is actually being harmed at all by all of this. I'm not convinced she is, or that if she is, that the harm is any more than is involved in the sort of relationship any average 15 year old would be involved in with a boy her age." they have, at best, a lack of judgement and I would not want someone like that in a position of trust.
Fair enough, then you probably could have worded it better (like this post, which is a much better way of putting it) because your original post sure looked like a bit of a snide insinuation.
But like many others, I don't think it is as black and white as many people think. Someone does not suddenly mature from when they are 15 years and 364 days old to when they hit 16. There are very mature 15 year olds, and very immature 18/19 year olds.
I have no doubt this young lady thinks she is in love, maybe he does too. For all I know they actually could be, or maybe she has been "groomed", again we don't yet have enough information to know exactly what has taken place.
But the fact she is under the UK age of consent means that he has committed, at the very least, child abduction, so whether she is really in love, and whether he really is, doesn't come in to it as far as the law is concerned, especially if it turns out they have sexual contact. The law doesn't take into account the fact that people mature at different rates, as it has to set an arbitrary line somewhere. But I wouldn't class anyone who maybe thinks the law should look at each case individually in such circumstances (even if I disagree) as being somehow condoning the guy, or defending him, or maybe having disturbing tendencies as some in this thread seem to think.
In my opinion we have things about right in terms of the age of consent, if we wanted to wait until everyone was fully mature enough then it would have to be set at somewhere like 25.
There have been a fair few that have skirted very near to saying that, which leaves the rest of us to draw our own conclusions as to how they view young teenage girls.
Some of us try to view them as people and imagine them as individuals, which means not all moral issues are black and white. Again I re-iterate that the power differential is not good here and therefore this example is generally a bad thing. (without knowing all the facts)
However in that grey area there are several interesting discussions (I at 15 was probably far more capable of giving informed consent than most my friends even several who were a few years older) but they are general ethical discussions rather than on the specifics of this case. Yes there have been maybe two posters who have been the 'wrong' side of tasteful but I think you are reading too much into some people's post of you think a 'fair few' have skirted close.
Having just said people are treating this like a storyline you are then conjecturing about it not ending well.
That doesn't mean anyone's hoping for a tragic & dramatic outcome, rather it's a sign of worry. I'm the mother of a 15 year old girl & I can't help but put myself in her mother's shoes. God only knows what's going through that poor woman's head.
Some of us try to view them as people and imagine them as individuals, which means not all moral issues are black and white. Again I re-iterate that the power differential is not good here and therefore this is generally a bad thing.
However in that grey area there are several interesting discussions (I at 15 was probably far more capable of giving informed consent than most my friends even several who were a few years older) but they are general ethical discussions rather than on the specifics of this case. Yes there have been maybe two posters who have been the 'wrong' side of tasteful but I think you are reading too much into some people's post of you think a 'fair few' have skirted close.
So I was thinking, what with them going off to France, it's all a bit Abelard and Heloise.
He "the keenest thinker and boldest theologian of the 12th Century", she "a brilliant scholar... nominatissima (most renowned)... known throughout Western Europe for her scholarship".
He was born in 1079, she in 1101, so over 20yrs difference. It's funny, it's one of the great romantic stories, whereas this is a dirty scandal.
Well perhaps if her family castrates him like Heloise's did Abelard it might gain the required piquancy
Not to mention taking a minor without parental consent out of the country and
teachers are not allowed to have relationships with their pupils - it is a betrayal of trust and
She is a minor in the eyes of the law.
If she was 16, he was 30 and they were not pupil/teacher, then many on here might disapprove but it would not be illegal if they were having a sexual relationship. Indeed, they might still be happily together 30 years later as many 16 year olds can be remarkably mature (whilst others are not) just as many 30 year olds can be still quite immature!
This guy looks like a right doughnut. How anyone could find him attractive is beyond me.
There is always a select few in life that can get away with anything. Don't give me that rubbish about him not being attractive ugly guys can get attractive girlfriends, you see it up and down the UK times have changed.
I mean if you are going to make such insinuations shouldn't you be directing them at the posters concerned and giving them a chance to defend themselves?.
That doesn't mean anyone's hoping for a tragic & dramatic outcome, rather it's a sign of worry. I'm the mother of a 15 year old girl & I can't help but put myself in her mother's shoes. God only knows what's going through that poor woman's head.
I was deliberately avoiding the use of the word 'hoping' as I know thats not the case but some people seem to be caught up in the excitement, for want of a better phrase.
I have a young daughter, so I've not had to deal with the whole boys issue yet, I can put myself in the mother's situation to the extent, I know what I'd like to do to anyone who hurt my little one. However I'm still far enough removed to have a certain dispassionate (not really, but hope you know what I'm getting at) view of the situation as a whole.
They bonded on a school trip to America seemingly.
Hold the f*** up, a school trip to America ??
That's some trip , we only got to go the local manky Safari Park.
I went to to America with my school
Didn't fall in love with a teacher though .Then again I saw my teachers as ancient at the time ,when looking back some of them were probably only around my age now :eek:
Hope it ended well , Waterloo Road rarely does, apparantly .
Not really, lol, although to my surprise not for the most obvious reason.
(When she was pregnant) "Abélard proposed a secret marriage in order not to mar his career prospects. Héloïse initially opposed it, but the couple were married. When Fulbert (her dad) publicly disclosed the marriage, and Héloïse denied it, she went to the convent of Argenteuil at Abélard's urging. Fulbert, believing that Abélard wanted to be rid of Héloïse, had him castrated".
It's their letters afterwards that makes for the romantic story I think.
They bonded on a school trip to America seemingly.
Hold the f*** up, a school trip to America ??
That's some trip , we only got to go the local manky Safari Park.
I was really shocked when I heard about that trip. LA isn't exactly cheap! When I was at school the furthest we went was Dublin for the day (I went to school in Ireland). We got the bus up at 7am and came back at home late that evening.
That wasn't the quoted post you responded to though I think. I get what you mean to an extent, but I also appreciate the 'best interests' thing the poster was on about, even if it was a little too liberal for my taste.
Fair point - yes, I quoted another post, but in my head I was responding to that particular poster and the pair of posts!
My feeling is that this girl isn't wise enough yet to know what's best for her - otherwise why would she have agreed to a hair-brained scheme like this? If there's a genuine love involved here - and a 15 year age gap in itself is not so huge that it's impossible, there would be ways and means (changing job, divorcing wife, waiting a bit, being discreet!) of making it work or at least giving it a genuine try. People have said it's like a plot from Waterloo Road, and it's exactly that, it's the worst thing anyone could do - running away with a teacher will always involve a high profile police hunt, notoriety, prison and tears in the end.
I was deliberately avoiding the use of the word 'hoping' as I know thats not the case but some people seem to be caught up in the excitement, for want of a better phrase.
I have a young daughter, so I've not had to deal with the whole boys issue yet, I can put myself in the mother's situation to the extent, I know what I'd like to do to anyone who hurt my little one. However I'm still far enough removed to have a certain dispassionate (not really, but hope you know what I'm getting at) view of the situation as a whole.
I just really, really want her to be found safe & soon. He can go to hell as far as I care.
Fair point - yes, I quoted another post, but in my head I was responding to that particular poster and the pair of posts!
My feeling is that this girl isn't wise enough yet to know what's best for her - otherwise why would she have agreed to a hair-brained scheme like this? If there's a genuine love involved here - and a 15 year age gap in itself is not so huge that it's impossible, there would be ways and means (changing job, divorcing wife, waiting a bit, being discreet!) of making it work or at least giving it a genuine try. People have said it's like a plot from Waterloo Road, and it's exactly that, it's the worst thing anyone could do - running away with a teacher will always involve a high profile police hunt, notoriety, prison and tears in the end.
Waterloo Road is a pretty good analogy. I watch that with my younger daughter, so I can point out how far fetched the storylines are & why the teachers shouldn't be acting they way they are if they were real teachers.
I was really shocked when I heard about that trip. LA isn't exactly cheap! When I was at school the furthest we went was Dublin for the day (I went to school in Ireland). We got the bus up at 7am and came back at home late that evening.
Not to mention taking a minor without parental consent out of the country and
teachers are not allowed to have relationships with their pupils - it is a betrayal of trust and
She is a minor in the eyes of the law.
If she was 16, he was 30 and they were not pupil/teacher, then many on here might disapprove but it would not be illegal if they were having a sexual relationship. Indeed, they might still be happily together 30 years later as many 16 year olds can be remarkably mature (whilst others are not) just as many 30 year olds can be still quite immature!
As has been said before though, the 16 year old age of consent is a red herring - the fact he is in a position of authority over he immediately raises the age to 18,
If he got another job and got a divorce then it would be a 9 day local wonder, not something involving police forces from at least 2 countries,
I really don't think he's that ugly . He's a perfectly average looking bloke .You wouldn't give him a second glance in the street because he's neither hideously ugly nor massively attractive . His apparent ugliness is being exacerbated by the situation.
Not that what he looks like has any relevance whatsoever.
My first post on this thread is going to be an admission of being wrong and a bit embarrassing.
I thought I had truly found "the" one at the ripe old age of 13 as was he, we dated and started being sexual at the age of 15, all this time we were "head over heals in love"
I called him my soul mate and my best friend, we later married at 17 and had 3 beautiful children!
However, my best mate (when we was 15) had a boyfriend of 31, we all assumed it was sexual as they went out on dates all the time, slept together and lived in each others pockets. It turned out that their relationship was platonic.
What I'm trying to say is we were both unhappy 15 yr olds that looked elsewhere for happyness ! I found it in a sexual relationship and my friend found it in a man that replaced her dad!
Comments
He "the keenest thinker and boldest theologian of the 12th Century", she "a brilliant scholar... nominatissima (most renowned)... known throughout Western Europe for her scholarship".
He was born in 1079, she in 1101, so over 20yrs difference. It's funny, it's one of the great romantic stories, whereas this is a dirty scandal.
I hope not. You know what them Continentals are like. Probably on the communal barbecue by now.
[/forum]
Well quite. I doubt if a 30 year old man went abroad with a 25 year old woman it would be a big news story.
It would be however if the woman was vulnerable and the man had a duty of care for her.
That wasn't the quoted post you responded to though I think. I get what you mean to an extent, but I also appreciate the 'best interests' thing the poster was on about, even if it was a little too liberal for my taste.
As someone who has also been a 15 year old girl, I was very mature for my age at that time, and whilst I can appreciate this kind of relationship can and is harmful, I'm not sure how much damage it may have done me in that situation. I was more than capable of declining the interests of older men and wasn't overly flattered just because they were older.
One person's life experience isn't a yardstick for all others (yes I know you didn't exactly say that) but the power difference in this relationship is obviously a major concern, I would still rather have as many facts as possible before forming a full judgement.
There have been a fair few that have skirted very near to saying that, which leaves the rest of us to draw our own conclusions as to how they view young teenage girls.
Hope it ended well , Waterloo Road rarely does, apparantly .
Fair enough, then you probably could have worded it better (like this post, which is a much better way of putting it) because your original post sure looked like a bit of a snide insinuation.
But like many others, I don't think it is as black and white as many people think. Someone does not suddenly mature from when they are 15 years and 364 days old to when they hit 16. There are very mature 15 year olds, and very immature 18/19 year olds.
I have no doubt this young lady thinks she is in love, maybe he does too. For all I know they actually could be, or maybe she has been "groomed", again we don't yet have enough information to know exactly what has taken place.
But the fact she is under the UK age of consent means that he has committed, at the very least, child abduction, so whether she is really in love, and whether he really is, doesn't come in to it as far as the law is concerned, especially if it turns out they have sexual contact. The law doesn't take into account the fact that people mature at different rates, as it has to set an arbitrary line somewhere. But I wouldn't class anyone who maybe thinks the law should look at each case individually in such circumstances (even if I disagree) as being somehow condoning the guy, or defending him, or maybe having disturbing tendencies as some in this thread seem to think.
In my opinion we have things about right in terms of the age of consent, if we wanted to wait until everyone was fully mature enough then it would have to be set at somewhere like 25.
Some of us try to view them as people and imagine them as individuals, which means not all moral issues are black and white. Again I re-iterate that the power differential is not good here and therefore this example is generally a bad thing. (without knowing all the facts)
However in that grey area there are several interesting discussions (I at 15 was probably far more capable of giving informed consent than most my friends even several who were a few years older) but they are general ethical discussions rather than on the specifics of this case. Yes there have been maybe two posters who have been the 'wrong' side of tasteful but I think you are reading too much into some people's post of you think a 'fair few' have skirted close.
That doesn't mean anyone's hoping for a tragic & dramatic outcome, rather it's a sign of worry. I'm the mother of a 15 year old girl & I can't help but put myself in her mother's shoes. God only knows what's going through that poor woman's head.
You weren't one of the ones I was alluding to.
Well perhaps if her family castrates him like Heloise's did Abelard it might gain the required piquancy
Not to mention taking a minor without parental consent out of the country and
teachers are not allowed to have relationships with their pupils - it is a betrayal of trust and
She is a minor in the eyes of the law.
If she was 16, he was 30 and they were not pupil/teacher, then many on here might disapprove but it would not be illegal if they were having a sexual relationship. Indeed, they might still be happily together 30 years later as many 16 year olds can be remarkably mature (whilst others are not) just as many 30 year olds can be still quite immature!
There is always a select few in life that can get away with anything. Don't give me that rubbish about him not being attractive ugly guys can get attractive girlfriends, you see it up and down the UK times have changed.
Then who were you alluding to?.
I mean if you are going to make such insinuations shouldn't you be directing them at the posters concerned and giving them a chance to defend themselves?.
I was deliberately avoiding the use of the word 'hoping' as I know thats not the case but some people seem to be caught up in the excitement, for want of a better phrase.
I have a young daughter, so I've not had to deal with the whole boys issue yet, I can put myself in the mother's situation to the extent, I know what I'd like to do to anyone who hurt my little one. However I'm still far enough removed to have a certain dispassionate (not really, but hope you know what I'm getting at) view of the situation as a whole.
I went to to America with my school
Didn't fall in love with a teacher though .Then again I saw my teachers as ancient at the time ,when looking back some of them were probably only around my age now :eek:
(When she was pregnant) "Abélard proposed a secret marriage in order not to mar his career prospects. Héloïse initially opposed it, but the couple were married. When Fulbert (her dad) publicly disclosed the marriage, and Héloïse denied it, she went to the convent of Argenteuil at Abélard's urging. Fulbert, believing that Abélard wanted to be rid of Héloïse, had him castrated".
It's their letters afterwards that makes for the romantic story I think.
I was really shocked when I heard about that trip. LA isn't exactly cheap! When I was at school the furthest we went was Dublin for the day (I went to school in Ireland). We got the bus up at 7am and came back at home late that evening.
Fair point - yes, I quoted another post, but in my head I was responding to that particular poster and the pair of posts!
My feeling is that this girl isn't wise enough yet to know what's best for her - otherwise why would she have agreed to a hair-brained scheme like this? If there's a genuine love involved here - and a 15 year age gap in itself is not so huge that it's impossible, there would be ways and means (changing job, divorcing wife, waiting a bit, being discreet!) of making it work or at least giving it a genuine try. People have said it's like a plot from Waterloo Road, and it's exactly that, it's the worst thing anyone could do - running away with a teacher will always involve a high profile police hunt, notoriety, prison and tears in the end.
I just really, really want her to be found safe & soon. He can go to hell as far as I care.
And then this happens.
Chester Zoo and Tatton Hall from what I remember.
We never even left the North West.
We were deprived.:D:D
As has been said before though, the 16 year old age of consent is a red herring - the fact he is in a position of authority over he immediately raises the age to 18,
If he got another job and got a divorce then it would be a 9 day local wonder, not something involving police forces from at least 2 countries,
Not that what he looks like has any relevance whatsoever.
I thought I had truly found "the" one at the ripe old age of 13 as was he, we dated and started being sexual at the age of 15, all this time we were "head over heals in love"
I called him my soul mate and my best friend, we later married at 17 and had 3 beautiful children!
However, my best mate (when we was 15) had a boyfriend of 31, we all assumed it was sexual as they went out on dates all the time, slept together and lived in each others pockets. It turned out that their relationship was platonic.
What I'm trying to say is we were both unhappy 15 yr olds that looked elsewhere for happyness ! I found it in a sexual relationship and my friend found it in a man that replaced her dad!
Now as a 43yr old things are different!!!