Do you not agree that 90%+ of the Irish population pre-1980's were completely brainwashed from the pulpit? .. Of course the vast majority of people didn't have any idea of what was going on inside these institutions but the vast majority were part of a society who looked upon pregnant girls.. etc as outcasts and people who embarrassed themselves and their families.
I dont know , I didnt count them .I just know that there were many good living , good working people who had enough of their own worries in their lives to deal with .
I am not argueing your point that it was awful and shameful , I am argueing your point that everyone is partly to blame .
Oiche mhaith
Really? what about the young Hindu woman who spent a week in an Irish bed a month ago and then died because she was refused treatment on religious grounds even though she was not a catholic.Women leave Ireland never to return by the hundreds after falling pregnant out of wedlock due to the shame and hostility they will receive even today. Nothing has changed as far as I can see.
I dont know , I didnt count them .I just know that there were many good living , good working people who had enough of their own worries in their lives to deal with .
I am not argueing your point that it was awful and shameful , I am argueing your point that everyone is partly to blame .
I wasn't alive, I am just going on information that I heard from parents, grandparents, neighbour's... etc... on how brainwashed society and even themselves were from the pulpit.... just watching primetime on RTE, a lady who spent 13 years in a laundry just said when she came out "Nobody cared, nobody listened"... now that's why all of society should be ashamed.
I wasn't alive, I am just going on information that I heard from parents, grandparents, neighbour's... etc... on how brainwashed society and even themselves were from the pulpit.... just watching primetime on RTE, a lady who spent 13 years in a laundry just said when she came out "Nobody cared, nobody listened"... now that's why all of society should be ashamed.
Really? Well, I grew up in Dublin in the 70s and 80s and I didn't even know these places existed, so why should I feel ashamed? The people who should feel ashamed are the clergy who ran these places, and the public officials who allowed it, not the ordinary people who were just trying to make a living in a dirt poor country. And neither I nor my friends (or family) were ever brainwashed from the pulpit. I always made my own choices and decisions, and not at the behest of some priest.
The state and the church have a lot to answer to what with the Magdalene Laundry's the lost children sent to Australia and Canada to be used as slave labour and sexually abused all in the name of the church .
This is another instance where I feel truly ashamed of my countries past, the Catholic church ruled this country with an iron fist for the majority of our existence and my generation is the first to be able to stand up without bowing/kneeling before these bastards and shake off the shackles of the past. I for one hope there is a god and every single one who participated in these austerities burn in hell for what they did to those poor innocent woman... The traditional catholic church in Ireland will be non-existent in Ireland in 20 years, all of which was their own doing, I welcome that day even as I still believe in god.
I have a feeling you are right. I am half Irish and have very elderly Aunts in Ireland who are deeply religious and will not have a word said against the Catholic Church. Their children are not as fanatical about the church although they still attend.
However, the next generation down are quite different. Some don't even go to church now which was unheard of before. They are also having babies without getting married and other things which the older Catholics would never, ever have tolerated.
Really? Well, I grew up in Dublin in the 70s and 80s and I didn't even know these places existed, so why should I feel ashamed? The people who should feel ashamed are the clergy who ran these places, and the public officials who allowed it, not the ordinary people who were just trying to make a living in a dirt poor country. And neither I nor my friends (or family) were ever brainwashed from the pulpit. I always made my own choices and decisions, and not at the behest of some priest.
Maybe it was different in rural Ireland because up to the 1980's the catholic church was still completely brainwashing people in this part of the country, events like the annual stations were seen as almost a mark of whether a family were proper catholic's... You don't seem to understand, I don't mean individuals like you should feel ashamed but as a society who almost worshiped the ground the clergy stood on we have to take some responsibility for the way children and woman were treated in all aspects of society.
Does not say much about the catholic church does it. and "nuns" in particular ! this is a disgrace in ireland. But i gather this is noting new about the catholic churchin ireland.
priests sexually assauting boys nuns hitting patients and school chidren . priests storing weapons for the IRA. its been endless sorry to say.. I blame the irish govt for letting this go on for so long..
I hope the report is damning. Just watching the news and reading about this on the internet one thing that strikes me is how recent it is and the fact there may well be people on here who have relatives (they themselves) affected by this.
Ahh the Catholic church... hiding cases of child rape and now de facto slavery it seems. Such compassion.
Do you not agree that 90%+ of the Irish population pre-1980's were completely brainwashed from the pulpit? .. Of course the vast majority of people didn't have any idea of what was going on inside these institutions but the vast majority were part of a society who looked upon pregnant girls.. etc as outcasts and people who embarrassed themselves and their families.
They were brainwashed and terrified of priests and the church. Even when I was still at primary school I could pick up that my Mum thought the priest was God and was completely in awe of him.
I was in Ireland a couple of years ago when the news came on about abuse in catholic homes and schools by priests. I can't remember the full details but some important people were apologising to the thousands of victims and the report lasted for about 10 mins.
I sat there at a family gathering with my Mum and her 3 equally elderly sisters and they didn't bat an eyelid. I said "OMG, isn't that terrible.?" one of them finally said "if it really happened.":eek::eek: I was speechless but they were all so brainwashed that they can't even consider priests would ever do stuff like that.
I have a feeling you are right. I am half Irish and have very elderly Aunts in Ireland who are deeply religious and will not have a word said against the Catholic Church. Their children are not as fanatical about the church although they still attend.
However, the next generation down are quite different. Some don't even go to church now which was unheard of before. They are also having babies without getting married and other things which the older Catholics would never, ever have tolerated.
Its interesting especially with my age group, most if not all of the people who I went to primary school were dressed up and brought to mass every single Sunday, that was 12-15 years ago.... today If one or two of us go to mass even twice a month its alot... even our parents have started to stay at home. It seems to be the elderly now that are the only ones who definitely go to mass on a regular basis.
I usually only go to mass on Christmas day, I still believe in god but not anymore in the traditional church. I don't give money in the baskets nor to the priests. You will see in 15-20 years churches in rural Ireland will be closing on mass.
One of the great "what if's?" is the death of Michael Collins, would things have been different if he had lived?...would the catholic church have been given so much power? ... its an interesting thought.
Michael Collins was a religious man like most Irishmen of his generation but he had none of the pious and zealous nuttiness of De Valera and his buddies.
It was an absolute tragedy for the new Irish State that Collins was killed. He would have made a great prime minister and statesman and would never have engaged in some of the the bonkers policies such as the trade war with the UK.
Instead within a few years of his death, that crowd of Gaelic religious nuts came to power.
They were brainwashed and terrified of priests and the church
You are completely correct, some on here might not want to admit to the facts but the vast vast majority of Irish people were completely brainwashed through the pulpit every Sunday morning for generations... Its not easy to admit it from an Irish point of view but the facts speak from themselves and the sooner we admit it the better.
They were brainwashed and terrified of priests and the church. Even when I was still at primary school I could pick up that my Mum thought the priest was God and was completely in awe of him.
I was in Ireland a couple of years ago when the news came on about abuse in catholic homes and schools by priests. I can't remember the full details but some important people were apologising to the thousands of victims and the report lasted for about 10 mins.
I sat there at a family gathering with my Mum and her 3 equally elderly sisters and they didn't bat an eyelid. I said "OMG, isn't that terrible.?" one of them finally said "if it really happened.":eek::eek: I was speechless but they were all so brainwashed that they can't even consider priests would ever do stuff like that.
The influence of the Catholic Church was all pervasive. At one point in the 1950s, there were 50,000 priests in Ireland out of a population of only 3m at the time.
It seems to have been an extreme reaction against the policies of the British in the past who had indeed tried to suppress the Catholic religion in Ireland. But this new fanatical piety and devotion to religion was dangerous stuff and many, many people suffered as a result.....slavish and unquestioning devotion to the institution of a Church at the expense of individuals was a recipe for disaster.
Sick of people crying because they had to work in a bloody laundry. Where were the fathers of their children? Why didn`t THEY look after them? Fact is the Nuns took them in when nobody else would.
Michael Collins was a religious man like most Irishmen of his generation but he had none of the pious and zealous nuttiness of De Valera and his buddies.
It was an absolute tragedy for the new Irish State that Collins was killed. He would have made a great prime minister and statesman and would never have engaged in some of the the bonkers policies such as the trade war with the UK.
Instead within a few years of his death, that crowd of Gaelic religious nuts came to power.
I suppose it is telling that Churchill actually respected Collins [the most unlikeliest person you would think of ever respecting Collins] - "He was an Irish patriot, true and fearless... When in future times the Irish Free State is not only prosperous and happy, but an active and annealing force... regard will be paid by widening circles to his life and to his death..."
Collins obviously impressed Churchill as a man of principal, we can only speculate how good or bad he would have done as Taoiseach but as I said the economic stagnation from 1922-1960 would make you think anyone would have probably been better then De Valera, just look at what Lemass did after taking over the reins.
Its interesting especially with my age group, most if not all of the people who I went to primary school were dressed up and brought to mass every single Sunday, that was 12-15 years ago.... today If one or two of us go to mass even twice a month its alot... even our parents have started to stay at home. It seems to be the elderly now that are the only ones who definitely go to mass on a regular basis.
I usually only go to mass on Christmas day, I still believe in god but not anymore in the traditional church. I don't give money in the baskets nor to the priests. You will see in 15-20 years churches in rural Ireland will be closing on mass.
My lot sometimes go twice on a Sunday and several days in the week. They will go come hell or high water!:D I often have my Mum stay for weekends and some Sundays I just don't have time to run her to church (16 mile round trip) although I do when I can.
She thought it was terrible when she missed Mass the first few times but now she's realised that a thunderbolt isn't going to come and strike her dead and she's a lot more relaxed about it. We've also had some interesting discussions about the massive part the Catholic church played in her upbringing. She has admitted to me several times that they never questioned anything, they just did as they were told.
There were such strong beliefs about so many things ..... marrying non-Catholics, contraception, having babies outside of wedlock, attending Mass, confession etc and they just went along with all of it.
One of my cousin's kids got pregnant at 14 and now has 5 kids and she's only in her mid-20s and STILL not married to the father of them all. She would definitely have ended up in the Magdalene laundries years ago.;)
The influence of the Catholic Church was all pervasive. At one point in the 1950s, there were 50,000 priests in Ireland out of a population of only 3m at the time.
It seems to have been an extreme reaction against the policies of the British in the past who had indeed tried to suppress the Catholic religion in Ireland. But this new fanatical piety and devotion to religion was dangerous stuff and many, many people suffered as a result.....slavish and unquestioning devotion to the institution of a Church at the expense of individuals was a recipe for disaster.
There's no doubt that Ireland was a very religious and conservative country, but maybe it was different in Dublin, as I didn't see any fanatical piety around me. Oh there were religious people around, but the vast majority of people I grew up were not what I would call deeply religious at all. Of course, all the attempted brainwashing at school worked on some people, but certainly in my school it was definitely the minority. Neither of my parents ever went to mass, and none of my 3 brothers did either. The only mass attending member of my family was (and still is) my sister. As I said, maybe it was different in Dublin.
I suppose it is telling that Churchill actually respected Collins [the most unlikeliest person you would think of ever respecting Collins] - "He was an Irish patriot, true and fearless... When in future times the Irish Free State is not only prosperous and happy, but an active and annealing force... regard will be paid by widening circles to his life and to his death..."
Collins obviously impressed Churchill as a man of principal, we can only speculate how good or bad he would have done as Taoiseach but as I said the economic stagnation from 1922-1960 would make you think anyone would have probably been better then De Valera, just look at what Lemass did after taking over the reins.
Most historians seem to think that Collins wouldn't have favoured isolationist policies and that he would have wanted friendly relations with Britain.
The economic and cultural stagnation was downright criminal....the country scarcely changed at all between 1922 and 1960, whereas the 1950s were a time of prosperity in much of Europe. At least we were fortunate to get a visionary like Lemass at the start of the 1960s.
Most historians seem to think that Collins wouldn't have favoured isolationist policies and that he would have wanted friendly relations with Britain.
The economic and cultural stagnation was downright criminal....the country scarcely changed at all between 1922 and 1960, whereas the 1950s were a time of prosperity in much of Europe. At least we were fortunate to get a visionary like Lemass at the start of the 1960s.
One of my cousin's kids got pregnant at 14 and now has 5 kids and she's only in her mid-20s and STILL not married to the father of them all. She would definitely have ended up in the Magdalene laundries years ago.;)
... she would have been sent somewhere anyway, thankfully them days are gone and people are more interested in the care children get rather then whether the mother in married or whether it would embarrass the family in a deeply brainwashed society. Thank god them days are over, about 100 years too late but at least it has come at last.
Most historians seem to think that Collins wouldn't have favoured isolationist policies and that he would have wanted friendly relations with Britain.
The economic and cultural stagnation was downright criminal....the country scarcely changed at all between 1922 and 1960, whereas the 1950s were a time of prosperity in much of Europe. At least we were fortunate to get a visionary like Lemass at the start of the 1960s.
The finest Taoiseach this country has ever seen, from a 1916 volunteer to a Taoiseach who laid the foundations to a modern independent economy ... how he must turn in his grave at what his Fianna Fail successes did to this country.
I think he single handedly destroyed the Fianna Fáil party. He introduced the concept of corruption to them and made it fashionable....their total collapse in recent years can be traced back to him.
Comments
I dont know , I didnt count them .I just know that there were many good living , good working people who had enough of their own worries in their lives to deal with .
I am not argueing your point that it was awful and shameful , I am argueing your point that everyone is partly to blame .
Oiche mhaith
Ah come on
Really? Well, I grew up in Dublin in the 70s and 80s and I didn't even know these places existed, so why should I feel ashamed? The people who should feel ashamed are the clergy who ran these places, and the public officials who allowed it, not the ordinary people who were just trying to make a living in a dirt poor country. And neither I nor my friends (or family) were ever brainwashed from the pulpit. I always made my own choices and decisions, and not at the behest of some priest.
I have a feeling you are right. I am half Irish and have very elderly Aunts in Ireland who are deeply religious and will not have a word said against the Catholic Church. Their children are not as fanatical about the church although they still attend.
However, the next generation down are quite different. Some don't even go to church now which was unheard of before. They are also having babies without getting married and other things which the older Catholics would never, ever have tolerated.
priests sexually assauting boys nuns hitting patients and school chidren . priests storing weapons for the IRA. its been endless sorry to say.. I blame the irish govt for letting this go on for so long..
Ahh the Catholic church... hiding cases of child rape and now de facto slavery it seems. Such compassion.
They were brainwashed and terrified of priests and the church. Even when I was still at primary school I could pick up that my Mum thought the priest was God and was completely in awe of him.
I was in Ireland a couple of years ago when the news came on about abuse in catholic homes and schools by priests. I can't remember the full details but some important people were apologising to the thousands of victims and the report lasted for about 10 mins.
I sat there at a family gathering with my Mum and her 3 equally elderly sisters and they didn't bat an eyelid. I said "OMG, isn't that terrible.?" one of them finally said "if it really happened.":eek::eek: I was speechless but they were all so brainwashed that they can't even consider priests would ever do stuff like that.
I usually only go to mass on Christmas day, I still believe in god but not anymore in the traditional church. I don't give money in the baskets nor to the priests. You will see in 15-20 years churches in rural Ireland will be closing on mass.
Michael Collins was a religious man like most Irishmen of his generation but he had none of the pious and zealous nuttiness of De Valera and his buddies.
It was an absolute tragedy for the new Irish State that Collins was killed. He would have made a great prime minister and statesman and would never have engaged in some of the the bonkers policies such as the trade war with the UK.
Instead within a few years of his death, that crowd of Gaelic religious nuts came to power.
The influence of the Catholic Church was all pervasive. At one point in the 1950s, there were 50,000 priests in Ireland out of a population of only 3m at the time.
It seems to have been an extreme reaction against the policies of the British in the past who had indeed tried to suppress the Catholic religion in Ireland. But this new fanatical piety and devotion to religion was dangerous stuff and many, many people suffered as a result.....slavish and unquestioning devotion to the institution of a Church at the expense of individuals was a recipe for disaster.
Wow that is harsh.
Collins obviously impressed Churchill as a man of principal, we can only speculate how good or bad he would have done as Taoiseach but as I said the economic stagnation from 1922-1960 would make you think anyone would have probably been better then De Valera, just look at what Lemass did after taking over the reins.
My lot sometimes go twice on a Sunday and several days in the week. They will go come hell or high water!:D I often have my Mum stay for weekends and some Sundays I just don't have time to run her to church (16 mile round trip) although I do when I can.
She thought it was terrible when she missed Mass the first few times but now she's realised that a thunderbolt isn't going to come and strike her dead and she's a lot more relaxed about it. We've also had some interesting discussions about the massive part the Catholic church played in her upbringing. She has admitted to me several times that they never questioned anything, they just did as they were told.
There were such strong beliefs about so many things ..... marrying non-Catholics, contraception, having babies outside of wedlock, attending Mass, confession etc and they just went along with all of it.
One of my cousin's kids got pregnant at 14 and now has 5 kids and she's only in her mid-20s and STILL not married to the father of them all. She would definitely have ended up in the Magdalene laundries years ago.;)
There's no doubt that Ireland was a very religious and conservative country, but maybe it was different in Dublin, as I didn't see any fanatical piety around me. Oh there were religious people around, but the vast majority of people I grew up were not what I would call deeply religious at all. Of course, all the attempted brainwashing at school worked on some people, but certainly in my school it was definitely the minority. Neither of my parents ever went to mass, and none of my 3 brothers did either. The only mass attending member of my family was (and still is) my sister. As I said, maybe it was different in Dublin.
Most historians seem to think that Collins wouldn't have favoured isolationist policies and that he would have wanted friendly relations with Britain.
The economic and cultural stagnation was downright criminal....the country scarcely changed at all between 1922 and 1960, whereas the 1950s were a time of prosperity in much of Europe. At least we were fortunate to get a visionary like Lemass at the start of the 1960s.
Yeah, but then we got Haughey in the 80s.
I think he single handedly destroyed the Fianna Fáil party. He introduced the concept of corruption to them and made it fashionable....their total collapse in recent years can be traced back to him.