Inclined to agree that the post was not factual in terms of this particular case ( how could it be?) but highly opinionated and a bit too sure of its contents and point of view to be convincing (respectfully but picture a table thumping know it all bore in the pub)
What is needed here is less passion on all sides and conclusions that result from accepting that shooting unarmed people on the street is never going to be good news even if on this occasion the victim was somebody who it would appear had played with fire once too many times.
Strident opinions are best avoided and rushing to conclusions that don't respect or even acknowledge the shadows of doubt that are accepted on all sides of this particular case do not IMO make for contributions that can be described as 'outstanding'.
For example,far from 'pandering to these people' there is nobody in the police service that thinks that the shooting of anyone up to and including Duggan is anything other than unfortunate…..reasonable people should start contributing to the discussion from that standpoint or I suspect they are more likely to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
The only good thing that can come out of this case is making sure that police practice and the judicial process conducts itself in an unreproachable manner going forward.
Inclined to agree that the post was not factual but highly opinionated and a bit too sure of its contents and point of view to be convincing (respectfully but picture a table thumping know it all bore in the pub)
What is needed here is less passion on all sides and conclusions that result from accepting that shooting unarmed people on the street is never going to be good news even if on this occasion the victim was somebody who it would appear had played with fire once too many times.
Strident opinions are best avoided and rushing to conclusions that don't respect or even acknowledge the shadows of doubt that are accepted on all sides of this particular case do not IMO make for contributions that can be described as 'outstanding'.
For example,far from 'pandering to these people' there is nobody in the police service that thinks that the shooting of anyone up to and including Duggan is anything other than unfortunate…..reasonable people should start contributing to the discussion from that standpoint or I suspect they are more likely to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
The only good thing that can come out of this case is making sure that police practice and the judicial process conducts itself in an unreproachable manner going forward.
So what was wrong with this Judicial process then?
Inclined to agree that the post was not factual but highly opinionated and a bit too sure of its contents and point of view to be convincing (respectfully but picture a table thumping know it all bore in the pub)
What is needed here is less passion on all sides and conclusions that result from accepting that shooting unarmed people on the street is never going to be good news even if on this occasion the victim was somebody who it would appear had played with fire once too many times.
Strident opinions are best avoided and rushing to conclusions that don't respect or even acknowledge the shadows of doubt that are accepted on all sides of this particular case do not IMO make for contributions that can be described as 'outstanding'.
For example,far from 'pandering to these people' there is nobody in the police service that thinks that the shooting of anyone up to and including Duggan is anything other than unfortunate…..reasonable people should start contributing to the discussion from that standpoint or I suspect they are more likely to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
The only good thing that can come out of this case is making sure that police practice and the judicial process conducts itself in an unreproachable manner going forward.
Using the term "shooting an unarmed person" in these circumstances is intended to make the Police out to be the bad guys.
He was an armed criminal, who threw his gun away at the moment he was challenged, so the couple of seconds that took in such a situation is not enough for me to say he was unarmed.
His aunt added: "What we really want the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission) to do now is to do what they should have done in the beginning and that is a thorough investigation.
"Over 65% of the IPCC members are ex-police, so therefore they are investigating their own people, and I believe that's why Mark did not get the justice that he should have got," she added.
Irrespective of the failings of the IPCC the cold hard facts of the shooting haven't changed.
I'd refrained from passing comment whilst the investigation and inquest were ongoing, here are my views which I now feel I can legally express:
This whole thing makes me sick.
No, not the entirely correct and proper police activity, investigation and judicial processes. The repulsive way those within the criminal fraternity and mindless lefties have hijacked this situation to turn it into something it isn't.
Firstly, the question of race.
Duggan wasn't shot because he was black. He was shot because he was illegally in possession of a firearm and coupled with his history of criminality (both convicted and intelligence only) meant that officers legitimately and understandably felt at threat when confronting him.
The race card has been exploited by some in "the community", in the wider population and by those in public life with an agenda such as David Lammy, Diane Abbott and Keith Vaz.
The latter know entirely how disingenuous and dangerous this type of game-playing is but have elected to put their popularity with certain groups ahead of their integrity and morality.
The question of race can be rectified quite quickly by looking at the stats put forward by inquest.org. Before I delve into these, it ought to be noted that these stats were used independently by those with an axe to grind to misrepresent the situation.
From 1990 to end 2013 there were 144 BME deaths in "police custody or otherwise following contact with the police".
In short - BME deaths after "contact" with the police is disproportionate to the population by one third.
No arguments on race can be provided when these facts are known.
Next, whether it was necessary for the police to shoot Duggan.
Duggan was a convicted criminal who was known to police for activities which they had been unable to adequately prosecute. In British law that means he was innocent of those activities.
However, when intelligence became available that he was engaged in the acquisition of a firearm, his background was of paramount importance to those involved in the operation - innocent lives were at stake, including those of the police and general public.
The police operate on the same basis as you or I - they are allowed to use proportionate force if they believe their lives may be in danger.
It is not unreasonable to conclude that lives were in danger throughout.
The officer who fired the shots convinced the jury (of a range of people from the local area, I might add) that he did so in good faith believing there to be an imminent risk.
It has been said that the police are "licenced murderers" and have "escaped justice". It is understandable that people are upset when a loved-one dies but it is somewhat rich of those who live a life of criminality to suddenly decide the law should protect them.
That said, It did just that - the case took almost four months to establish all the facts.
Why did the officer shoot to kill?
He didn't is the simple answer, he shot to prevent himself [and anyone else] coming to harm. To shoot someone in the leg (as has been suggested) is known around the world to be an ineffective and risky tactic.
Police are trained to shoot for the central body mass as:
1). It is more likely they will hit the target than aiming for the head.
2). It will stop someone in their tracks.
It is not reasonable to expect people to put themselves in such dangerous circumstances to act like a social worker or doctor, they aren't able to resolve every situation by discussion and reasoning.
That said, the stats indicate that they are incredibly successful at doing so in most cases -
During 2011/12, there were 12,550 operations in which the use of firearms was authorised.
Firstly, the reaction of Duggan supporters was repulsive - we're given to understand there were threats made (some of which we heard on TV) and damage to the court.
The police took no action. I feel this is wrong but we can understand, if not agree with why - they didn't want to trigger another riot.
This suggests that the British police are being held to ransom by the criminal fraternity because people, as described above, are using this case for their own agendas.
I note Bernard Hogan-Howe was asked on Channel 4 News if the "death was avoidable" to which he gave some lily livered politicians answer.
What he should have said was "absolutely, he [Duggan] could have avoided this by not obtaining a firearm".
Today we have the Socialist Worker rent-a-mob releasing Doves for a brutal gangster - these people appear to have no sense of irony.
We had a mass of people converge on a police station to demand "justice" - they cannot accept that justice has been done in this case.
For years to come people will pander to this group in order to prevent rampant criminality on the streets.
This is deeply damaging to our country and to the morale of the people we pay to protect the majority of decent people who live in the area and around the UK.
It is time people in authority stopped pandering to those with agendas and made these facts crystal clear.
Haringey TUC Secretary Keith Flett said The fact that numbers of trade union banners were there,particularly from the RMT and NUT as well as that of the Trades Council itself, underlines concern that justice has not been seen to be done for Mark Duggan and his family. It also indicates that wider issues of justice are at stake here, about policing certainly, but also about jobs and decent wages in the area. This is a community whose voice authority often seems to struggle to hear, and which is demanding respect and dignity in the way it is treated
How can you link the death of Duggan to jobs and decent wages in the area? There is a danger this chap is being made a hero.
No, I've said anyone who carries a gun around should be locked up, no excuses at all.
If he'd been arrested and the gun was recovered, the lack of DNA or fingerprints means his high priced lawyer would have got him off. Sure, we wouldn't be talking about his death but chances are he'd be (or his family) sueing for wrongful arrest and harassment.
He thought he had it all covered, but obviously did something wrong and we all know the rest of the story. I can't see how his race has anything to do with it.
I don't recall reading or hearing any of duggans dysfunctional family condemning him for driving around with a gun on the way to kill someone!!!!! Obviously it was the fault of the police that made him do it!!!! (rolleyes) I think they're more concerned that he got caught doing it.
I hope the authorities don't listen to these stupid people wanting an inquiry about something that had a lawful outcome. It'll just be a waste of everyones time. If they hadn't had such an idiot as a relative they wouldn't be in this position. I hope they don't get any more publicity either.
I don't recall reading or hearing any of duggans dysfunctional family condemning him for driving around with a gun on the way to kill someone!!!!! Obviously it was the fault of the police that made him do it!!!! (rolleyes) I think they're more concerned that he got caught doing it.
And also concerned that someone grassed in the first place to give the police the suitable intelligence. I bet they'll have to watch their back too.
Damn those cops doing their job to get gangsters off the streets and make them safer for people from all backgrounds.
I wasn't aware gangsters represent any community. Certainly not any I'd like to be part of.
I love that auntie, she's brilliant, I think the black community need someone like that, hopefully the police will do the right thing from now on and stop killing black people in their custody.
At the ahem 'vigil' did that Carole Duggan woman refer to the police as dogs and us as their masters? I think after that hate filled speech the media and most of the public have been reassured that mob is nothing but trashy scum.
At the ahem 'vigil' did that Carole Duggan woman refer to the police as dogs and us as their masters? I think after that hate filled speech the media and most of the public have been reassured that mob is nothing but trashy scum.
Nasty bunch.
It's little wonder Duggan ended up the way he did.
where is the fm anais32? they were very vocal in this here thread before the verdict. at least we now know for the future their posts are less than credible
Comments
Hopefully things stay peaceful for the remainder of the weekend. It's a shame that many members of the public were inconvenienced today however.
So did the last one and see what happened after the official demonstration ended.
But so far so good and may that remain so.
Inclined to agree that the post was not factual in terms of this particular case ( how could it be?) but highly opinionated and a bit too sure of its contents and point of view to be convincing (respectfully but picture a table thumping know it all bore in the pub)
What is needed here is less passion on all sides and conclusions that result from accepting that shooting unarmed people on the street is never going to be good news even if on this occasion the victim was somebody who it would appear had played with fire once too many times.
Strident opinions are best avoided and rushing to conclusions that don't respect or even acknowledge the shadows of doubt that are accepted on all sides of this particular case do not IMO make for contributions that can be described as 'outstanding'.
For example,far from 'pandering to these people' there is nobody in the police service that thinks that the shooting of anyone up to and including Duggan is anything other than unfortunate…..reasonable people should start contributing to the discussion from that standpoint or I suspect they are more likely to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
The only good thing that can come out of this case is making sure that police practice and the judicial process conducts itself in an unreproachable manner going forward.
I'm delighted to hear that, and I hope that's it as far as public gatherings go for him, because this certainly had the potential to go bad.
So what was wrong with this Judicial process then?
Using the term "shooting an unarmed person" in these circumstances is intended to make the Police out to be the bad guys.
He was an armed criminal, who threw his gun away at the moment he was challenged, so the couple of seconds that took in such a situation is not enough for me to say he was unarmed.
Irrespective of the failings of the IPCC the cold hard facts of the shooting haven't changed.
Excellent post
How can you link the death of Duggan to jobs and decent wages in the area? There is a danger this chap is being made a hero.
That's my point. I am mixed race and I don't like it when people say I'm black.
Is someone with even 1 drop of black blood in them is black ?
That explains why your siding with Duggan's supporters then...
No, I've said anyone who carries a gun around should be locked up, no excuses at all.
If he'd been arrested and the gun was recovered, the lack of DNA or fingerprints means his high priced lawyer would have got him off. Sure, we wouldn't be talking about his death but chances are he'd be (or his family) sueing for wrongful arrest and harassment.
He thought he had it all covered, but obviously did something wrong and we all know the rest of the story. I can't see how his race has anything to do with it.
I hope the authorities don't listen to these stupid people wanting an inquiry about something that had a lawful outcome. It'll just be a waste of everyones time. If they hadn't had such an idiot as a relative they wouldn't be in this position. I hope they don't get any more publicity either.
Yep, exactly. Race shouldn't come into it, but unfortunately, this always happens when we get incidents like this - it's fodder for the bigots.
And also concerned that someone grassed in the first place to give the police the suitable intelligence. I bet they'll have to watch their back too.
Damn those cops doing their job to get gangsters off the streets and make them safer for people from all backgrounds.
I wasn't aware gangsters represent any community. Certainly not any I'd like to be part of.
Haven't you suggested as much in your post about his auntie?
I don't want to get involved in this thread anymore, it's too emotional. I want to stay out of this.
Anyways I think after that hate filled speech the media and most of the public have been reassured that mob is nothing but trashy scum.
No - they are the "community"
Nasty bunch.
It's little wonder Duggan ended up the way he did.
No, it makes them part-black-pudding.