It hasn't worked, and I see very little that Moyes is the man to be the new SAF, back to the drawing board. It's not going to be a day of joy when (if) Moyes is sacked, it almost leaves us back at square one, possibly worse.
Let's have a look at the few positives this season (that we have control over)
-champions league cup run - got a very easy group, olympiakos are no world beaters, and as soon as we came up against good opposition, they didn't really have to break a sweat, we worried them for all of 22 seconds
-januzaj - was introduced by SAF, is now looking completely knackered
-rooney - how much of keeping rooney was Moyes?
There's a good chance whoever we brought in this season as manager that we wouldn't have won the league, but we have to be doing a damn sight better than this.
Just an example of the sort of comments I see about Moyes going in December:
The evidence, down to the fact Moyes still has a job is that United, whether rightly or wrongly (a point I won't debate) are sticking with him. I don't expect a new manager until December.
Like I said - who one earth would be available in December? The people who make those comments don't seem to answer that!
All irrelevant, I know, but it's just a curiosity why so many people say December!
It hasn't worked, and I see very little that Moyes is the man to be the new SAF, back to the drawing board. It's not going to be a day of joy when (if) Moyes is sacked, it almost leaves us back at square one, possibly worse.
Let's have a look at the few positives this season (that we have control over)
-champions league cup run - got a very easy group, olympiakos are no world beaters, and as soon as we came up against good opposition, they didn't really have to break a sweat, we worried them for all of 22 seconds
-januzaj - was introduced by SAF, is now looking completely knackered
-rooney - how much of keeping rooney was Moyes?
There's a good chance whoever we brought in this season as manager that we wouldn't have won the league, but we have to be doing a damn sight better than this.
That first leg v Olympiakos was one of the biggest embarrassments in United's history, I would think. There was a 10 day gap after that til the next game, he should've gone then. Rest of the season might've been saved then.
And Rooney never wanted to leave. He always said he wanted to end his career at United. Fergie clearly went off him and might well have edged him out of the club this season. The way he openly said Rooney had put in a transfer request (I believe Rooney's version that he never did, that he was just fed up of the way he was treated last season) I think he just said that cos he knew he was going and decided to stick the knife in one last time!
So Rooney staying is nothing to do with Moyes as such, I don't think. Any new manager would probably have got him a new contract.
I have not been Moyes biggest fan this season, but you look at the table, and you look at the quality of the squads above us, and - being brutally honest - we're about where we should be.
The teams above us have better squads. Yes, we have a few world-class individual attacking players, but we have a below-average midfield and a defence consisting of aging and inexperienced players - nobody at the peak of their career. If we finish 6th, then that's about right for the squad.
You can't compare winning the league under SAF last year to this. He was one-of-a-kind and we won the league on the strength of that fact, Van Persie having a stormer, and the inadequacies of our rivals.
Sorry but you most certainly can compare last season to this. Of course you can, why wouldn't you? The idea that RVP won the title on his own is wide of the mark for me, he went 3 months without scoring for a start. Of course he had a great season and he was instrumental in the title win but it wasn't a one man team. The teams above us may be deemed to have better squads but all that means is that we could perhaps excuse losing to them. It doesn't affect us dropping points against Fulham, Southampton, WBA, and all the other teams that we should reasonably be expecting to beat. It doesn't excuse exiting the two domestic cup competitions to Sunderland and Swansea - teams who were so bad that they have both changed manager this season.
The reality is that Moyes was given a squad that were good enough to be league champions in May - the entire squad didn't suddenly turn to shit on July 1st 2013. The further reality is that Moyes was also given a £30m midfielder a £40m playmaker and an exciting new young talent to add to the squad that won the league, he also got a Wayne Rooney who is having a far better season than last year. It isn't unreasonable to expect us to be top 4 in these circumstances.
We are not top 4 but its not because the other sides have improved it is because we have been completely inept for the majority of the season. Sir Alex rightly gets a hell of a lot of credit for 25 years of success but that team that he put out last season wasn't playing some magical radical tactics, the team could easily be set up the same way this season. I genuinely don't think its rocket science. Instead of looking for excuses for our failure we should be asking serious questions of a man who can't even pick the same team twice in 50 matches - that is not the actions of a man who has a vision and a plan for the future.
The reality is that Moyes was given a squad that were good enough to be league champions in May - the entire squad didn't suddenly turn to shit on July 1st 2013. The further reality is that Moyes was also given a £30m midfielder a £40m playmaker and an exciting new young talent to add to the squad that won the league, he also got a Wayne Rooney who is having a far better season than last year. It isn't unreasonable to expect us to be top 4 in these circumstances.
He also has had a ravaged defence for most of the season, a midfield that has been getting gradually worse over the last few seasons (this was a major criticism of SAF's team) and a £30 million striker who hasn't been firing on any cylinders, never mind all of them.
I think to say our position this season is entirely down to our ineptitude is asinine. No, we haven't helped ourselves, and should we have been closer to the Top 4? Absolutely. But I don't honestly see how any United fan can look at the performances and squads of City, Liverpool and Chelsea this season and say that we have a squad that can match them. We don't. It's as simple as that. To have challenged for the title this season would have been a miracle, even with SAF.
Now, here is where I agree with you - that has to be Moyes fault. His failure to improve the squad in summer is the reason we are where we are. I don't think that necessarily makes Moyes a bad manager from other standpoints, but there is no doubt that his transfer market dealings so far have not inspired confidence.
Brendan Rodgers at United, could that be a thing? Only Irish, not Scottish. Up and coming young manager. As Million dollar man ted dibiase used to say, everyone has their price.
Brendan Rodgers at United, could that be a thing? Only Irish, not Scottish. Up and coming young manager. As Million dollar man ted dibiase used to say, everyone has their price.
Bloody liverpool must be loving this season.
There's probably more chance of me being unveiled as our new 'number 9'.
I think to say our position this season is entirely down to our ineptitude is asinine. No, we haven't helped ourselves, and should we have been closer to the Top 4? Absolutely. But I don't honestly see how any United fan can look at the performances and squads of City, Liverpool and Chelsea this season and say that we have a squad that can match them. We don't. It's as simple as that. To have challenged for the title this season would have been a miracle, even with SAF.
Why?
City and Chelsea haven't been unbeatable this year but that is really beside the point entirely. Lets look at some of our dropped points this season.
WBA at home - 3 points
Southampton at home - 2 points
Cardiff away - 2points
Spurs away - 2 points
Everton at home - 3 points
Newcastle at home - 3 points
Spurs at home - 3 points
Stoke away - 3 points
Fulham at home - 2 points
Thats 23 points dropped that we could reasonably realistically expected not to drop. These are all against teams we should be better than, games at home that we should be winning or teams that have been so bad that they have changed their manager. You can also add in Sunderland and Swansea in the cups.
That is completely ignoring points dropped to the so called big 4 sides that we are apparently not as good as anyway. We can leave these games alone and accept that we were second best to these teams, as i say thats irrelevant to this situation.
Those 23 points would put us 3 clear at the top. Of course its unrealistic to expect us to have won all these games, points would be dropped here and there as they always are but lets call it 15 points, thats not unreasonable - that would put us on 72 points and happily comfortable in 3rd place. Thats where we should be. Its not being arrogant or having a sense of entitlement or anything else, its just looking for us to have constantly beaten the frankly crap teams that we have dropped points to. Do that and we wouldn't be complaining or i wouldn't be anyway.
Thanks for including Everton in that list of "frankly crap" teams.
Oops Sorry!!!
I wouldn't put Everton in that category at all, you have had a great season. They are only being included because you beat us at Old Trafford and i think we should be expecting to beat any non-top 4 team at our place. Again, not an automatic entitlement but I don't think standards should have slipped so far that we should be expecting to drop these type of points. Inevitably it happens in places but it shouldn't be the norm.
Thanks for including Everton in that list of "frankly crap" teams.
That's the second time I've laughed out loud today, cheers. The first being the thread on redcafe asking if we can qualify for the europa league via the fair play system.
You'll have the last laugh on sunday no doubt. It is quite amazing how well everton are doing without moyes. A real eye opener.
(we're 16th lol, liverpool are top of that league as well as the form league, f**k me)
There's probably more chance of me being unveiled as our new 'number 9'.
There is more chance of me and Cantona going a whole season without an argument or an insult between us then us appointing Rogers as our manager.......no wait, scratch that, Rogers being our manager is more likely than than scenario! ;-)
I wouldn't put Everton in that category at all, you have had a great season. They are only being included because you beat us at Old Trafford and i think we should be expecting to beat any non-top 4 team at our place. Again, not an automatic entitlement but I don't think standards should have slipped so far that we should be expecting to drop these type of points. Inevitably it happens in places but it shouldn't be the norm.
There is more chance of me and Cantona going a whole season without an argument or an insult between us then us appointing Rogers as our manager.......no wait, scratch that, Rogers being our manager is more likely than than scenario! ;-)
Its Rodgers, with a "d".
Usually those exchanges result from a pointless and pedantic intervention on your part.
Sorry but you most certainly can compare last season to this. Of course you can, why wouldn't you? The idea that RVP won the title on his own is wide of the mark for me, he went 3 months without scoring for a start. Of course he had a great season and he was instrumental in the title win but it wasn't a one man team. The teams above us may be deemed to have better squads but all that means is that we could perhaps excuse losing to them. It doesn't affect us dropping points against Fulham, Southampton, WBA, and all the other teams that we should reasonably be expecting to beat. It doesn't excuse exiting the two domestic cup competitions to Sunderland and Swansea - teams who were so bad that they have both changed manager this season.
The reality is that Moyes was given a squad that were good enough to be league champions in May - the entire squad didn't suddenly turn to shit on July 1st 2013. The further reality is that Moyes was also given a £30m midfielder a £40m playmaker and an exciting new young talent to add to the squad that won the league, he also got a Wayne Rooney who is having a far better season than last year. It isn't unreasonable to expect us to be top 4 in these circumstances.
We are not top 4 but its not because the other sides have improved it is because we have been completely inept for the majority of the season. Sir Alex rightly gets a hell of a lot of credit for 25 years of success but that team that he put out last season wasn't playing some magical radical tactics, the team could easily be set up the same way this season. I genuinely don't think its rocket science. Instead of looking for excuses for our failure we should be asking serious questions of a man who can't even pick the same team twice in 50 matches - that is not the actions of a man who has a vision and a plan for the future.
Agree with every word, the warning signs were there on the ill fated tour:o:o
City and Chelsea haven't been unbeatable this year but that is really beside the point entirely. Lets look at some of our dropped points this season.
WBA at home - 3 points
Southampton at home - 2 points
Cardiff away - 2points
Spurs away - 2 points
Everton at home - 3 points
Newcastle at home - 3 points
Spurs at home - 3 points
Stoke away - 3 points
Fulham at home - 2 points
Thats 23 points dropped that we could reasonably realistically expected not to drop. These are all against teams we should be better than, games at home that we should be winning or teams that have been so bad that they have changed their manager. You can also add in Sunderland and Swansea in the cups.
That is completely ignoring points dropped to the so called big 4 sides that we are apparently not as good as anyway. We can leave these games alone and accept that we were second best to these teams, as i say thats irrelevant to this situation.
Those 23 points would put us 3 clear at the top. Of course its unrealistic to expect us to have won all these games, points would be dropped here and there as they always are but lets call it 15 points, thats not unreasonable - that would put us on 72 points and happily comfortable in 3rd place. Thats where we should be. Its not being arrogant or having a sense of entitlement or anything else, its just looking for us to have constantly beaten the frankly crap teams that we have dropped points to. Do that and we wouldn't be complaining or i wouldn't be anyway.
hello neutral fan here (well Liverpool fan, but that's besides the point)
The above list of points dropped are all (I think) due the odd goal going against you..
Granted it's unlikely you would have won all teh games, but when a bit of luck it could have happened. And that's basically the point Moyes hasn't had any luck this season. I buy into this narrative (driven by amongst others F365 columnists) that Moyes is a negative manager.
There's no he would have consistently got Everton into the 6 six if he was so negative, he would have been found out ages ago (of course the comeback is that he's being found out now).
All of the above results could and in some case have happened under Ferguson. The difference is that have all happened to Moyes. Next season Man United could play exactly the same (average) football and be better off. As it is I don't think you will play averagely, I do genuinely believe Moyes is a good manager (not in a sarcastic way) and that given time he can correct things.
Good team are built from the back (George Graham taught us that). Moyes needs to trust Rafael and/or get a good right back for back up/competition. Definitely needs a new left back and say goodbye Evra, who is a shadow of his former self and maybe get a good 26-28 year old centre back to play alongside Jones (who needs to stop being jack of all trades).
Coupled with a Toure/Keane/Essien/Vieira (yes I know they don't just fall out of the sky) type in midfield to give Mata/Kagawa time to dictate play and a decent winger to replace Giggs, you have the making of a very strong side (not just a top 4 challenger).
Okay easy for me to write that, probably not that easy for any club to just go out and purchase in a World Cup year.
3 defenders
1 centre midfielder
1 winger
Then say thanks for the memories to Rio, Evra, Fletcher, Giggs and probably Carrick. Obviously you're stuck with Fellani, but maybe he'll have a better second season.
Agree with every word, the warning signs were there on the ill fated tour:o:o
And while I'm ranting, it is getting incredibly tiresome to read some United fans completely dismissing last seasons title win as some sort on non-achievement in order to excuse this seasons form. Its bollocks, it really is. We won the title last season because we were the best team. We scored loads of goals in the first half of the season when our defence was problematic, we then shut up shop at the back in the second half of the season when RVP went off the boil. The idea that we only won the league because no one else cared is bloody annoying and does a huge disservice to the guys that won the games and put the points on the board. We have demonstrated in the last 5 years that this teams norm is to be 1st or 2nd, this position we are in right now is the exception or at least it should be.
hello neutral fan here (well Liverpool fan, but that's besides the point)
The above list of points dropped are all (I think) due the odd goal going against you..
Granted it's unlikely you would have won all teh games, but when a bit of luck it could have happened. And that's basically the point Moyes hasn't had any luck this season. I buy into this narrative (driven by amongst others F365 columnists) that Moyes is a negative manager.
There's no he would have consistently got Everton into the 6 six if he was so negative, he would have been found out ages ago (of course the comeback is that he's being found out now).
All of the above results could and in some case have happened under Ferguson. The difference is that have all happened to Moyes. Next season Man United could play exactly the same (average) football and be better off. As it is I don't think you will play averagely, I do genuinely believe Moyes is a good manager (not in a sarcastic way) and that given time he can correct things.
Good team are built from the back (George Graham taught us that). Moyes needs to trust Rafael and/or get a good right back for back up/competition. Definitely needs a new left back and say goodbye Evra, who is a shadow of his former self and maybe get a good 26-28 year old centre back to play alongside Jones (who needs to stop being jack of all trades).
Coupled with a Toure/Keane/Essien/Vieira (yes I know they don't just fall out of the sky) type in midfield to give Mata/Kagawa time to dictate play and a decent winger to replace Giggs, you have the making of a very strong side (not just a top 4 challenger).
Okay easy for me to write that, probably not that easy for any club to just go out and purchase in a World Cup year.
3 defenders
1 centre midfielder
1 winger
Then say thanks for the memories to Rio, Evra, Fletcher, Giggs and probably Carrick. Obviously you're stuck with Fellani, but maybe he'll have a better second season.
I agree that changes need to be made but we are making excuses here. You say that these results could have happened under SAF well with respect no they couldn't. In fact they didn't. Under SAF with the same players we won the title. Yes, you always get a freak result here and there we can't win every week but a list that long of silly points dropped
is not bad luck or a coincidence. That is the way the man has us playing. Don't forget to add in the two cup defeats too and for the purposes of making my point i didn't include the loss and draw with Chelsea, the two absolute horsings we took from City and the two defeats to Liverpool. That is not bad luck.
We can even take out the Everton and Spurs results too. Spurs have spent £100m and Everton are having a good season so lets remove them from the list. Thats 8 points off the 23 which still gives us 15 potential extra points and puts us top 3. Thats not unreasonable and its not asking the impossible.
By all means we can talk about changes we could make and weaknesses in the squad and i accept that. If we were talking about us being in 3rd place and needing extra quality to overhaul City or Chelsea id accept that we need to make changes but thats not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about people justifying us being a mid table side this season by saying the squad isn't good enough, which is nonsense. We have a better squad than all those teams i listed, plus Swansea and Sunderland. We should be winning these games and we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to get back to beating these sides, we just need a manager who knows what he is doing.
Moyes has not picked the same side twice since he took over. That is 50 games with 50 completely different teams. Just think about that for a minute. Now of course there are injuries, suspensions etc, but would you really hand £150m to a man who doesn't have a clue what his best team is? Would you hand £150m to a man who has spent £70m already on two players he doesn't seem to know what to do with? Would you hand £150m to a man who doesn't even seem to know what formation he wants to play? I'll tell you right now that i certainly wouldn't.
City and Chelsea haven't been unbeatable this year but that is really beside the point entirely. Lets look at some of our dropped points this season.
WBA at home - 3 points
Southampton at home - 2 points
Cardiff away - 2points
Spurs away - 2 points
Everton at home - 3 points
Newcastle at home - 3 points
Spurs at home - 3 points
Stoke away - 3 points
Fulham at home - 2 points
Thats 23 points dropped that we could reasonably realistically expected not to drop. These are all against teams we should be better than, games at home that we should be winning or teams that have been so bad that they have changed their manager. You can also add in Sunderland and Swansea in the cups.
That is completely ignoring points dropped to the so called big 4 sides that we are apparently not as good as anyway. We can leave these games alone and accept that we were second best to these teams, as i say thats irrelevant to this situation.
Those 23 points would put us 3 clear at the top. Of course its unrealistic to expect us to have won all these games, points would be dropped here and there as they always are but lets call it 15 points, thats not unreasonable - that would put us on 72 points and happily comfortable in 3rd place. Thats where we should be. Its not being arrogant or having a sense of entitlement or anything else, its just looking for us to have constantly beaten the frankly crap teams that we have dropped points to. Do that and we wouldn't be complaining or i wouldn't be anyway.
Normally I'd agree with you on everything you've said here and consistently nearly all season now and a few months ago I was agreeing with you on Moyes but let's look again at your main complaint that you've dropped points not just to the big teams but the middle-ranking and smaller teams as well. Certainly you've had a wretched season overall and for much of the season you have drawn or lost to the smaller teams as well as the bigger teams. Now look at what's happened over the last few months. Yes, you've still been losing to the likes of Man City, Liverpool and Bayern Munich but you've also quite comfortably beaten the middle-ranked and smaller teams which you weren't doing so much in the first half of the season. Yes, I know its not much compensation but you said you'd tolerate losing to the likes of Chelsea and Man City this season as long as you weren't also losing or drawing too many of the games against so-called lesser opposition. Well, you're not losing or drawing to them anymore so your main gripe against Moyes hasn't actually applied anymore over the last few months. Not that it makes up for Man Utd having the worst season in over twenty years but maybe there's signs of improvement now and you do have the best away record in the Prem.
Normally I'd agree with you on everything you've said here and consistently nearly all season now and a few months ago I was agreeing with you on Moyes but let's look again at your main complaint that you've dropped points not just to the big teams but the middle-ranking and smaller teams as well. Certainly you've had a wretched season overall and for much of the season you have drawn or lost to the smaller teams as well as the bigger teams. Now look at what's happened over the last few months. Yes, you've still been losing to the likes of Man City, Liverpool and Bayern Munich but you've also quite comfortably beaten the middle-ranked and smaller teams which you weren't doing so much in the first half of the season. Yes, I know its not much compensation but you said you'd tolerate losing to the likes of Chelsea and Man City this season as long as you weren't also losing or drawing too many of the games against so-called lesser opposition. Well, you're not losing or drawing to them anymore so your main gripe against Moyes hasn't actually applied anymore over the last few months. Not that it makes up for Man Utd having the worst season in over twenty years but maybe there's signs of improvements now.
It was only in February that we lost to Stoke and to Olympiacos so i don't think we are able to make any definitive statements about Moyes having turned things around. February was also the 2-2 draw with Fulham which was a low point for me. I think we have actually just added an extra bit of quality in the shape of Mata into the team and that is giving us the extra push to beat the lesser sides. Maybe you are right and he has learned - i certainly hope so but i think its early to say.
There are a lot of questions that remain unanswered for me. I would certainly be happy if you are right and he does get to grips with the job, i have nothing against him and id be happy for him to be a success but i have to be honest and say I've disagreed with just about everything he has done from day one!!
Normally I'd agree with you on everything you've said here and consistently nearly all season now and a few months ago I was agreeing with you on Moyes but let's look again at your main complaint that you've dropped points not just to the big teams but the middle-ranking and smaller teams as well. Certainly you've had a wretched season overall and for much of the season you have drawn or lost to the smaller teams as well as the bigger teams. Now look at what's happened over the last few months. Yes, you've still been losing to the likes of Man City, Liverpool and Bayern Munich but you've also quite comfortably beaten the middle-ranked and smaller teams which you weren't doing so much in the first half of the season. Yes, I know its not much compensation but you said you'd tolerate losing to the likes of Chelsea and Man City this season as long as you weren't also losing or drawing too many of the games against so-called lesser opposition. Well, you're not losing or drawing to them anymore so your main gripe against Moyes hasn't actually applied anymore over the last few months. Not that it makes up for Man Utd having the worst season in over twenty years but maybe there's signs of improvement now and you do have the best away record in the Prem.
We've managed a handful of decent results against absolute dross.
I also question how much of this 'upturn' is down to Moyes. Would we have seen the more fluid, interchanging play from Kagawa and Mata if Van Persie had been fit?
The answer will probably become apparent when Van Persie returns, because you can bet your arse that he won't drop Rooney.
The difference last season is that we had a manager that knew what he was doing, the table never lies. The same players now look like they haven't a clue either now which will all be down to Moyes, except the likes of Valencia to name but a few who was crap last year as well:o
Normally I'd agree with you on everything you've said here and consistently nearly all season now and a few months ago I was agreeing with you on Moyes but let's look again at your main complaint that you've dropped points not just to the big teams but the middle-ranking and smaller teams as well. Certainly you've had a wretched season overall and for much of the season you have drawn or lost to the smaller teams as well as the bigger teams. Now look at what's happened over the last few months. Yes, you've still been losing to the likes of Man City, Liverpool and Bayern Munich but you've also quite comfortably beaten the middle-ranked and smaller teams which you weren't doing so much in the first half of the season. Yes, I know its not much compensation but you said you'd tolerate losing to the likes of Chelsea and Man City this season as long as you weren't also losing or drawing too many of the games against so-called lesser opposition. Well, you're not losing or drawing to them anymore so your main gripe against Moyes hasn't actually applied anymore over the last few months. Not that it makes up for Man Utd having the worst season in over twenty years but maybe there's signs of improvement now and you do have the best away record in the Prem.
I've been saying much the same as this for a few weeks now, thank goodness someone else has noticed that it's moved in the right direction. Still a long way to go but if we win our remaining games, with the possible exception of Everton away which is certain to be difficult, that analysis will be confirmed.
There is no point in anyone clamouring for a sacking at the moment, because we will know by the end of the season if the improvement is real or temporary and may as well gather that extra information before finalising our conclusions. But of course, some fans made their minds up on the day that Moyes' appointment was announced and seem to be constantly looking for confirmation of that opinion.
Comments
Let's have a look at the few positives this season (that we have control over)
-champions league cup run - got a very easy group, olympiakos are no world beaters, and as soon as we came up against good opposition, they didn't really have to break a sweat, we worried them for all of 22 seconds
-januzaj - was introduced by SAF, is now looking completely knackered
-rooney - how much of keeping rooney was Moyes?
There's a good chance whoever we brought in this season as manager that we wouldn't have won the league, but we have to be doing a damn sight better than this.
The evidence, down to the fact Moyes still has a job is that United, whether rightly or wrongly (a point I won't debate) are sticking with him. I don't expect a new manager until December.
Like I said - who one earth would be available in December? The people who make those comments don't seem to answer that!
All irrelevant, I know, but it's just a curiosity why so many people say December!
That first leg v Olympiakos was one of the biggest embarrassments in United's history, I would think. There was a 10 day gap after that til the next game, he should've gone then. Rest of the season might've been saved then.
And Rooney never wanted to leave. He always said he wanted to end his career at United. Fergie clearly went off him and might well have edged him out of the club this season. The way he openly said Rooney had put in a transfer request (I believe Rooney's version that he never did, that he was just fed up of the way he was treated last season) I think he just said that cos he knew he was going and decided to stick the knife in one last time!
So Rooney staying is nothing to do with Moyes as such, I don't think. Any new manager would probably have got him a new contract.
Sorry but you most certainly can compare last season to this. Of course you can, why wouldn't you? The idea that RVP won the title on his own is wide of the mark for me, he went 3 months without scoring for a start. Of course he had a great season and he was instrumental in the title win but it wasn't a one man team. The teams above us may be deemed to have better squads but all that means is that we could perhaps excuse losing to them. It doesn't affect us dropping points against Fulham, Southampton, WBA, and all the other teams that we should reasonably be expecting to beat. It doesn't excuse exiting the two domestic cup competitions to Sunderland and Swansea - teams who were so bad that they have both changed manager this season.
The reality is that Moyes was given a squad that were good enough to be league champions in May - the entire squad didn't suddenly turn to shit on July 1st 2013. The further reality is that Moyes was also given a £30m midfielder a £40m playmaker and an exciting new young talent to add to the squad that won the league, he also got a Wayne Rooney who is having a far better season than last year. It isn't unreasonable to expect us to be top 4 in these circumstances.
We are not top 4 but its not because the other sides have improved it is because we have been completely inept for the majority of the season. Sir Alex rightly gets a hell of a lot of credit for 25 years of success but that team that he put out last season wasn't playing some magical radical tactics, the team could easily be set up the same way this season. I genuinely don't think its rocket science. Instead of looking for excuses for our failure we should be asking serious questions of a man who can't even pick the same team twice in 50 matches - that is not the actions of a man who has a vision and a plan for the future.
He also has had a ravaged defence for most of the season, a midfield that has been getting gradually worse over the last few seasons (this was a major criticism of SAF's team) and a £30 million striker who hasn't been firing on any cylinders, never mind all of them.
I think to say our position this season is entirely down to our ineptitude is asinine. No, we haven't helped ourselves, and should we have been closer to the Top 4? Absolutely. But I don't honestly see how any United fan can look at the performances and squads of City, Liverpool and Chelsea this season and say that we have a squad that can match them. We don't. It's as simple as that. To have challenged for the title this season would have been a miracle, even with SAF.
Now, here is where I agree with you - that has to be Moyes fault. His failure to improve the squad in summer is the reason we are where we are. I don't think that necessarily makes Moyes a bad manager from other standpoints, but there is no doubt that his transfer market dealings so far have not inspired confidence.
Bloody liverpool must be loving this season.
There's probably more chance of me being unveiled as our new 'number 9'.
Why?
City and Chelsea haven't been unbeatable this year but that is really beside the point entirely. Lets look at some of our dropped points this season.
WBA at home - 3 points
Southampton at home - 2 points
Cardiff away - 2points
Spurs away - 2 points
Everton at home - 3 points
Newcastle at home - 3 points
Spurs at home - 3 points
Stoke away - 3 points
Fulham at home - 2 points
Thats 23 points dropped that we could reasonably realistically expected not to drop. These are all against teams we should be better than, games at home that we should be winning or teams that have been so bad that they have changed their manager. You can also add in Sunderland and Swansea in the cups.
That is completely ignoring points dropped to the so called big 4 sides that we are apparently not as good as anyway. We can leave these games alone and accept that we were second best to these teams, as i say thats irrelevant to this situation.
Those 23 points would put us 3 clear at the top. Of course its unrealistic to expect us to have won all these games, points would be dropped here and there as they always are but lets call it 15 points, thats not unreasonable - that would put us on 72 points and happily comfortable in 3rd place. Thats where we should be. Its not being arrogant or having a sense of entitlement or anything else, its just looking for us to have constantly beaten the frankly crap teams that we have dropped points to. Do that and we wouldn't be complaining or i wouldn't be anyway.
Oops Sorry!!!
I wouldn't put Everton in that category at all, you have had a great season. They are only being included because you beat us at Old Trafford and i think we should be expecting to beat any non-top 4 team at our place. Again, not an automatic entitlement but I don't think standards should have slipped so far that we should be expecting to drop these type of points. Inevitably it happens in places but it shouldn't be the norm.
That's the second time I've laughed out loud today, cheers. The first being the thread on redcafe asking if we can qualify for the europa league via the fair play system.
You'll have the last laugh on sunday no doubt. It is quite amazing how well everton are doing without moyes. A real eye opener.
(we're 16th lol, liverpool are top of that league as well as the form league, f**k me)
There is more chance of me and Cantona going a whole season without an argument or an insult between us then us appointing Rogers as our manager.......no wait, scratch that, Rogers being our manager is more likely than than scenario! ;-)
You included Spurs though, so I will let you off
Its Rodgers, with a "d".
Usually those exchanges result from a pointless and pedantic intervention on your part.
Like the one above, exhibit 51,000.
Chill, it was only a joke, or was meant to be taken as one, why the need to take things to heart so much?!
You just proved my point, about how ludicrous a chance of it happening, and of the chances of RoDgers being appointed as our manager! ;-)
Agree with every word, the warning signs were there on the ill fated tour:o:o
hello neutral fan here (well Liverpool fan, but that's besides the point)
The above list of points dropped are all (I think) due the odd goal going against you..
Granted it's unlikely you would have won all teh games, but when a bit of luck it could have happened. And that's basically the point Moyes hasn't had any luck this season. I buy into this narrative (driven by amongst others F365 columnists) that Moyes is a negative manager.
There's no he would have consistently got Everton into the 6 six if he was so negative, he would have been found out ages ago (of course the comeback is that he's being found out now).
All of the above results could and in some case have happened under Ferguson. The difference is that have all happened to Moyes. Next season Man United could play exactly the same (average) football and be better off. As it is I don't think you will play averagely, I do genuinely believe Moyes is a good manager (not in a sarcastic way) and that given time he can correct things.
Good team are built from the back (George Graham taught us that). Moyes needs to trust Rafael and/or get a good right back for back up/competition. Definitely needs a new left back and say goodbye Evra, who is a shadow of his former self and maybe get a good 26-28 year old centre back to play alongside Jones (who needs to stop being jack of all trades).
Coupled with a Toure/Keane/Essien/Vieira (yes I know they don't just fall out of the sky) type in midfield to give Mata/Kagawa time to dictate play and a decent winger to replace Giggs, you have the making of a very strong side (not just a top 4 challenger).
Okay easy for me to write that, probably not that easy for any club to just go out and purchase in a World Cup year.
3 defenders
1 centre midfielder
1 winger
Then say thanks for the memories to Rio, Evra, Fletcher, Giggs and probably Carrick. Obviously you're stuck with Fellani, but maybe he'll have a better second season.
And while I'm ranting, it is getting incredibly tiresome to read some United fans completely dismissing last seasons title win as some sort on non-achievement in order to excuse this seasons form. Its bollocks, it really is. We won the title last season because we were the best team. We scored loads of goals in the first half of the season when our defence was problematic, we then shut up shop at the back in the second half of the season when RVP went off the boil. The idea that we only won the league because no one else cared is bloody annoying and does a huge disservice to the guys that won the games and put the points on the board. We have demonstrated in the last 5 years that this teams norm is to be 1st or 2nd, this position we are in right now is the exception or at least it should be.
I agree that changes need to be made but we are making excuses here. You say that these results could have happened under SAF well with respect no they couldn't. In fact they didn't. Under SAF with the same players we won the title. Yes, you always get a freak result here and there we can't win every week but a list that long of silly points dropped
is not bad luck or a coincidence. That is the way the man has us playing. Don't forget to add in the two cup defeats too and for the purposes of making my point i didn't include the loss and draw with Chelsea, the two absolute horsings we took from City and the two defeats to Liverpool. That is not bad luck.
We can even take out the Everton and Spurs results too. Spurs have spent £100m and Everton are having a good season so lets remove them from the list. Thats 8 points off the 23 which still gives us 15 potential extra points and puts us top 3. Thats not unreasonable and its not asking the impossible.
By all means we can talk about changes we could make and weaknesses in the squad and i accept that. If we were talking about us being in 3rd place and needing extra quality to overhaul City or Chelsea id accept that we need to make changes but thats not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about people justifying us being a mid table side this season by saying the squad isn't good enough, which is nonsense. We have a better squad than all those teams i listed, plus Swansea and Sunderland. We should be winning these games and we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to get back to beating these sides, we just need a manager who knows what he is doing.
Moyes has not picked the same side twice since he took over. That is 50 games with 50 completely different teams. Just think about that for a minute. Now of course there are injuries, suspensions etc, but would you really hand £150m to a man who doesn't have a clue what his best team is? Would you hand £150m to a man who has spent £70m already on two players he doesn't seem to know what to do with? Would you hand £150m to a man who doesn't even seem to know what formation he wants to play? I'll tell you right now that i certainly wouldn't.
It was only in February that we lost to Stoke and to Olympiacos so i don't think we are able to make any definitive statements about Moyes having turned things around. February was also the 2-2 draw with Fulham which was a low point for me. I think we have actually just added an extra bit of quality in the shape of Mata into the team and that is giving us the extra push to beat the lesser sides. Maybe you are right and he has learned - i certainly hope so but i think its early to say.
There are a lot of questions that remain unanswered for me. I would certainly be happy if you are right and he does get to grips with the job, i have nothing against him and id be happy for him to be a success but i have to be honest and say I've disagreed with just about everything he has done from day one!!
We've managed a handful of decent results against absolute dross.
I also question how much of this 'upturn' is down to Moyes. Would we have seen the more fluid, interchanging play from Kagawa and Mata if Van Persie had been fit?
The answer will probably become apparent when Van Persie returns, because you can bet your arse that he won't drop Rooney.
I've been saying much the same as this for a few weeks now, thank goodness someone else has noticed that it's moved in the right direction. Still a long way to go but if we win our remaining games, with the possible exception of Everton away which is certain to be difficult, that analysis will be confirmed.
There is no point in anyone clamouring for a sacking at the moment, because we will know by the end of the season if the improvement is real or temporary and may as well gather that extra information before finalising our conclusions. But of course, some fans made their minds up on the day that Moyes' appointment was announced and seem to be constantly looking for confirmation of that opinion.