The law does restrict smaller chains though as it's perfectly possible for a sole trader or someone to run a small chain of shops all of which have a retail area of 280m² and bigger.
The law only restricts shops with a certain retail area, not retailers of a certain size (e.g. conglomerates).
That is pretty much exactly what I said. The Sunday trading law had the intended effect of permitting large stores to open for six hours on Sundays but had the (presumably) unforeseen effect of increasing the number of local high street stores which are open all day on Sundays. Before the law, almost all the stores open on Sundays were out-of-town superstores. Now you can buy pretty much anything on a Sunday that you can buy every other day of the week. The law has actually been beneficial to consumers. I really do not believe that you could claim otherwise.
Do you want me to change my opinion and agree with yours?
Plenty of people will know that it's legally required for shops to close on Sundays.
well if that's what they "know", they are wrong. as what you have just said isn't correct.
and this is where the discussion element comes in. someone makes a statement that's false, and someone else explains this. after being provided with new updated and correct information that person can then update their view, which may lead them to change their view
In fact, I'm sure at least the 10,000 people required on that petition site, probably many many more, will know that. As it stands, only 91 people actually care enough to search for it.
as pointed out, what you have said is not true. also, if you read the last post I made it may put things into better perspective
People have to do something about it if they want the law abolished. The retailers need to come out and say they want the law abolished. People have to actually do something. So the people that do know either don't care or can't be bothered to do something about it, meaning it isn't THAT important to them
again my last post explains things more clearly. most retailers are unlikely to support the change. and for various reasons most individuals probably won't either, partially because they simply don't care. and this point has been made before on this thread, just because most people don't care or don't want a law to be changed, doesn't mean the law shouldn't be changed
To be perfectly honest I don't give a flying f*** what the difference is, it's the law of the land and I'm happy with the status quo -
don't you think it's odd that a store of 2990 square foot can trade when they want when a store of 3010 square foot has restrictions? don't you think that's daft and pointless?
I will say one thing the Unions have been proved right Sunday working is now classed as the norm and you no longer get extra pay for it
Before the law, almost all the stores open on Sundays were out-of-town superstores. Now you can buy pretty much anything on a Sunday that you can buy every other day of the week. The law has actually been beneficial to consumers. I really do not believe that you could claim otherwise.
If you're talking about the big supermarkets opening smaller stores, that does mean they're more accessible. But those stores also often charge higher prices than the big ones, so how "beneficial" there are is open to question.
If shops want to open on Sunday ( and they do ) then so be it.
However, the law should be there to protect those who don't want to work on a Sunday.
it's been mentioned before a few times that the sunday trading laws don't affect the times staff can be asked to work, and that there are separate employment laws that do. no-one needs to work a sunday if they don't want to, or any specific days or hours, or even type of work
We have, the onus is on you to absorb the information within and take on board what was said in the post and sources provided, that's your job, not mine or anyone else's. I have been kind enough to do as much of the legwork as possible but I can only go so far even with my extended patience. Until you read said sources in full which backs up the answers from fellow FM's, which I don't believe you have done, any copy and pasting of questions already answered will just be non-constructive.
If you two are so confident you have answered the questions, then please quote the post(s) in which you have. However, if you are just going to repost the same two very long links then please just quote the relevant parts that answer the questions.
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
If shops want to open on Sunday ( and they do ) then so be it.
However, the law should be there to protect those who don't want to work on a Sunday.
There is. It only applies to retail workers though. It does not apply to all the other people who work on a Sunday though. Cinema workers for example, or gym workers.
Should the also be a law to protect those who don't want to work on a Monday too?
Why only give Sunday retail workers "protection" if they don't want to work on a Sunday, but if a teacher doesn't want to work a Monday, they can't? Or if a gym worker doesn't want to work on a Sunday, they aren't allowed to opt out. Seems more than a little unfair to me.
All the Sunday trading law boils down to is the size and location of the store. Why is it ok for a store with a retail size of 275m² to trade for 8 hours on a Sunday, but one with a retail size of 285m² is only allowed to trade for a maximum of 6 hours on a Sunday?
That is what the Sunday trading debate boils down to, the size retail area in a store.
If you're talking about the big supermarkets opening smaller stores, that does mean they're more accessible. But those stores also often charge higher prices than the big ones, so how "beneficial" there are is open to question.
Although the higher prices in some convenience stores are certainly a bad thing, they are not (AFAIK) caused by the Sunday trading law. They are caused by the higher overheads incurred in running shops in high streets. Or to look at it another way, the prices are lower in out-of-town stores because out-of-town stores have lower overheads and are therefore more profitable.
well if that's what they "know", they are wrong. as what you have just said isn't correct.
and this is where the discussion element comes in. someone makes a statement that's false, and someone else explains this. after being provided with new updated and correct information that person can then update their view, which may lead them to change their view
as pointed out, what you have said is not true. also, if you read the last post I made it may put things into better perspective
again my last post explains things more clearly. most retailers are unlikely to support the change. and for various reasons most individuals probably won't either, partially because they simply don't care. and this point has been made before on this thread, just because most people don't care or don't want a law to be changed, doesn't mean the law shouldn't be changed
Well if most retailers are not botherd, and if most people dont care, then not much point in changing the law then really, as it seems most people are happy as it is. I am sure if it was effecting their profits they would be shouting their heads off about it. The government dont seem to think its there is alot of benefit to the economy and increase jobs and hours available to staff or they would be doing this, as this is part of their job.
There used to be a couple of all-night chemists in London, but otherwise I doubt you'd find anything open after midnight in most areas of the capital.
I find that very hard to believe.
I've just remembered another 24/7 store in Luton, as I went there with a mate once. On the way to/from the town centre I pass 2 independent convenience stores and at least 3 takeaways that are open after midnight in a town which is tiny compared with London [255, 000 population compared with approx 1.6 million (City of London), 1.7 million (London urban area) and 8.4 million (London metro area)], so by probability alone, there must be quite a few places open after midnight in London, and that doesn't include pubs or nightclubs, for example. Our local Dominos is open from 10:00 to 04:45 seven days a week.
And of course, taxis here run 24/7 365 days of the year. Another one to add to the list of jobs where you might be required to work on a Sunday, even between midnight and 06:00 in the morning, for example.
Well if most retailers are not botherd, and if most people dont care, then not much point in changing the law then really, as it seems most people are happy as it is. I am sure if it was effecting their profits they would be shouting their heads off about it. The government dont seem to think its there is alot of benefit to the economy and increase jobs and hours available to staff or they would be doing this, as this is part of their job.
What is your problem with letting all retailers choose their own trading hours on a Sunday just like all retailers can on a Tuesday?
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
What is your problem with letting all retailers choose their own trading hours on a Sunday just like all retailers can on a Tuesday?
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
Well saying small independent stores have been suffering for years because of the big stores as in size and in the number of shops they own, and as the number of smaller shops these big names have been opening over the last few years, what is happening is more of the big name stores and less of the indendent retailers so the public are having less choice,
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
It isn't going to make a difference to the working conditions or pay cheques, so it's one of these redundant laws, despite what politicians may or not say, and we all know how useless they are at making sensible laws.
The main reason that politicians don't change stupid laws and then only reluctantly is that it doesn't benefit them personally, just like pub opening hours were in the dark ages not that long ago (when the bars in the HoC were open 24/7 and have been for a long time), the hypocrisy of having no problems putting up cigarette duty incessantly (when MPs don't pay duty on their cigarettes) and banning smoking in public places (but not in the HoC) etc.
It is part of the 24/7 society though and is relevant.
I'm not answering your questions as I've not brought them into the discussion and have stated (twice) that I think it is inevitable that the Sunday trading laws will be amended.
No it isn't. My local Asda is not 24 hours yet it has a licence to trade for 24 hours. Their main competition Tesco, 2 miles down the road is 24/7 excluding Sunday. How will getting rid of the Sunday Trading Laws bring in a 24 hour society. The local Tesco would move to a true 24/7 store but what would it matter anyway, it's full of staff regardless. And Asda won't suddenly change its entire hours because of the change.
Another point I made earlier which surprisingly no one even acknowledged apart from 'Dare Devil' was that Debenhams in Edinburgh, a city in Scotland with no Sunday Trading Laws only opened 11am till 6pm. People are just making this 24 hour society up. That's not the only example either, there was more including supermarkets.
Although the higher prices in some convenience stores are certainly a bad thing, they are not (AFAIK) caused by the Sunday trading law. They are caused by the higher overheads incurred in running shops in high streets.
Sure. I was responding to your point that increased numbers of these was clearly beneficial to consumers, and no-one could really argue against that. I just wanted to say, I don't think it's as simple as that.
You keep asking questions which have actual, factual answers.
Before the law liberalising Sunday trading was introduced, a number of large companies traded illegally on Sundays because the penalties for doing so were insufficient to act as a deterrent. However, smaller shops could not trade legally on Sundays and could not afford to risk the fines for breaking the law. When the law was changed it included the stipulation relating to the size of shops in order to redress the balance, so that smaller shops would not be driven out of business by larger chains. In doing so it also liberalised opening hours for smaller branches of large chains. This has led to a massive increase in the number of convenience stores but has also enabled some smaller independent shops to survive as the focus has shifted from out-of-town shopping to local stores.
Laws are not abstract concepts, they are regulations which exist for a reason. If the reason they exist ceases to be a valid one then it's likely they will be changed.
edit: I see tghe-retford has now cited documents that answer the questions
You mean like Tesco Express or Sainsburys convenience stores? The law changed nothing apart from driving big company's to get into the smaller shop market.
To be perfectly honest I don't give a flying f*** what the difference is, it's the law of the land and I'm happy with the status quo - I will say one thing the Unions have been proved right Sunday working is now classed as the norm and you no longer get extra pay for it
I'm not sure why one would expect extra pay to work a Sunday. It's just a day of the week.
If you two are so confident you have answered the questions, then please quote the post(s) in which you have. However, if you are just going to repost the same two very long links then please just quote the relevant parts that answer the questions.
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
There is. It only applies to retail workers though. It does not apply to all the other people who work on a Sunday though. Cinema workers for example, or gym workers.
Should the also be a law to protect those who don't want to work on a Monday too?
Why only give Sunday retail workers "protection" if they don't want to work on a Sunday, but if a teacher doesn't want to work a Monday, they can't? Or if a gym worker doesn't want to work on a Sunday, they aren't allowed to opt out. Seems more than a little unfair to me.
All the Sunday trading law boils down to is the size and location of the store. Why is it ok for a store with a retail size of 275m² to trade for 8 hours on a Sunday, but one with a retail size of 285m² is only allowed to trade for a maximum of 6 hours on a Sunday?
That is what the Sunday trading debate boils down to, the size retail area in a store.
No...I told you to go and look back through the thread, if you can't be bothered than that is your problem, you want the answer you find it, as it is in the thread, or at least mine is, but then again that would involve you doing some work, rather than just copying and pasting the same question over and over.
You mean like Tesco Express or Sainsburys convenience stores? The law changed nothing apart from driving big company's to get into the smaller shop market.
A big reason why Sainsbury's & Tesco's have gone into convenience stores area is getting planning permission to build out of town or large stores.
You mean like Tesco Express or Sainsburys convenience stores? The law changed nothing apart from driving big company's to get into the smaller shop market.
Which they used to be in, before they decided that out-of-town was the future. Before the big chains decided the high street was the "new" future, you couldn't find any shops open after 8pm. Now you can. Again, I can't see how that doesn't benefit consumers.
A big reason why Sainsbury's & Tesco's have gone into convenience stores area is getting planning permission to build out of town or large stores.
That's not the point though. Someone mentioned the law was helping smaller run stores when in fact it's probably done the opposite as we now have main chains like Tesco competing against them with their smaller stores.
it's been pointed out before however, and should be pretty obvious, that the law only affects a minority of retailers, as only a minority of retailers own stores large enough to be affected by the law. the majority don't. the majority of retailers who own smaller stores are typically in competition with the larger retailers who own the larger stores affected by the law. therefore if there was a vote by retailers, I'm sure you can figure out what the outcome will be
however the point being made is that is not fair, and in the current society there should not be any laws like this, particularly not when the removal of such law can benefit the economy and increase jobs and hours available to staff
I doubt very much if rescinding these laws would benefit the economy and increase jobs - shops would just change their rota's accordingly and more people would feel pressurized to work sundays or there'd be an increase in the use of self service checkouts
Comments
That is pretty much exactly what I said. The Sunday trading law had the intended effect of permitting large stores to open for six hours on Sundays but had the (presumably) unforeseen effect of increasing the number of local high street stores which are open all day on Sundays. Before the law, almost all the stores open on Sundays were out-of-town superstores. Now you can buy pretty much anything on a Sunday that you can buy every other day of the week. The law has actually been beneficial to consumers. I really do not believe that you could claim otherwise.
well if that's what they "know", they are wrong. as what you have just said isn't correct.
and this is where the discussion element comes in. someone makes a statement that's false, and someone else explains this. after being provided with new updated and correct information that person can then update their view, which may lead them to change their view
as pointed out, what you have said is not true. also, if you read the last post I made it may put things into better perspective
again my last post explains things more clearly. most retailers are unlikely to support the change. and for various reasons most individuals probably won't either, partially because they simply don't care. and this point has been made before on this thread, just because most people don't care or don't want a law to be changed, doesn't mean the law shouldn't be changed
don't you think it's odd that a store of 2990 square foot can trade when they want when a store of 3010 square foot has restrictions? don't you think that's daft and pointless?
wrong. as pointed out before
it's been mentioned before a few times that the sunday trading laws don't affect the times staff can be asked to work, and that there are separate employment laws that do. no-one needs to work a sunday if they don't want to, or any specific days or hours, or even type of work
If you two are so confident you have answered the questions, then please quote the post(s) in which you have. However, if you are just going to repost the same two very long links then please just quote the relevant parts that answer the questions.
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
There is. It only applies to retail workers though. It does not apply to all the other people who work on a Sunday though. Cinema workers for example, or gym workers.
Should the also be a law to protect those who don't want to work on a Monday too?
Why only give Sunday retail workers "protection" if they don't want to work on a Sunday, but if a teacher doesn't want to work a Monday, they can't? Or if a gym worker doesn't want to work on a Sunday, they aren't allowed to opt out. Seems more than a little unfair to me.
All the Sunday trading law boils down to is the size and location of the store. Why is it ok for a store with a retail size of 275m² to trade for 8 hours on a Sunday, but one with a retail size of 285m² is only allowed to trade for a maximum of 6 hours on a Sunday?
That is what the Sunday trading debate boils down to, the size retail area in a store.
Although the higher prices in some convenience stores are certainly a bad thing, they are not (AFAIK) caused by the Sunday trading law. They are caused by the higher overheads incurred in running shops in high streets. Or to look at it another way, the prices are lower in out-of-town stores because out-of-town stores have lower overheads and are therefore more profitable.
I find that very hard to believe.
I've just remembered another 24/7 store in Luton, as I went there with a mate once. On the way to/from the town centre I pass 2 independent convenience stores and at least 3 takeaways that are open after midnight in a town which is tiny compared with London [255, 000 population compared with approx 1.6 million (City of London), 1.7 million (London urban area) and 8.4 million (London metro area)], so by probability alone, there must be quite a few places open after midnight in London, and that doesn't include pubs or nightclubs, for example. Our local Dominos is open from 10:00 to 04:45 seven days a week.
And of course, taxis here run 24/7 365 days of the year. Another one to add to the list of jobs where you might be required to work on a Sunday, even between midnight and 06:00 in the morning, for example.
I have already pointed out that retailers are wanting change. See this post - http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=72308289&postcount=1128
What is your problem with letting all retailers choose their own trading hours on a Sunday just like all retailers can on a Tuesday?
So, again, I ask:
1. What is, in your opinion, the difference between someone working in a store with a retail area of 270m² for 8 hours on a Sunday to someone working in a store with a retail area of 290m²?
2. What is, in your opinion, the difference between a shop with a retail area of 270m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday to a shop with a retail area of 290m² trading for 8 hours on a Sunday?
I do fear that those who would object to working on Sunday would be victimised by their employer.
Victimized? In the same way that being insubordinate and refusing to follow a supervisor's instructions leads to you being victimized?
Well saying small independent stores have been suffering for years because of the big stores as in size and in the number of shops they own, and as the number of smaller shops these big names have been opening over the last few years, what is happening is more of the big name stores and less of the indendent retailers so the public are having less choice,
It isn't going to make a difference to the working conditions or pay cheques, so it's one of these redundant laws, despite what politicians may or not say, and we all know how useless they are at making sensible laws.
The main reason that politicians don't change stupid laws and then only reluctantly is that it doesn't benefit them personally, just like pub opening hours were in the dark ages not that long ago (when the bars in the HoC were open 24/7 and have been for a long time), the hypocrisy of having no problems putting up cigarette duty incessantly (when MPs don't pay duty on their cigarettes) and banning smoking in public places (but not in the HoC) etc.
No it isn't. My local Asda is not 24 hours yet it has a licence to trade for 24 hours. Their main competition Tesco, 2 miles down the road is 24/7 excluding Sunday. How will getting rid of the Sunday Trading Laws bring in a 24 hour society. The local Tesco would move to a true 24/7 store but what would it matter anyway, it's full of staff regardless. And Asda won't suddenly change its entire hours because of the change.
Another point I made earlier which surprisingly no one even acknowledged apart from 'Dare Devil' was that Debenhams in Edinburgh, a city in Scotland with no Sunday Trading Laws only opened 11am till 6pm. People are just making this 24 hour society up. That's not the only example either, there was more including supermarkets.
You mean like Tesco Express or Sainsburys convenience stores? The law changed nothing apart from driving big company's to get into the smaller shop market.
I'm not sure why one would expect extra pay to work a Sunday. It's just a day of the week.
No...I told you to go and look back through the thread, if you can't be bothered than that is your problem, you want the answer you find it, as it is in the thread, or at least mine is, but then again that would involve you doing some work, rather than just copying and pasting the same question over and over.
A big reason why Sainsbury's & Tesco's have gone into convenience stores area is getting planning permission to build out of town or large stores.
What's that got to do with Sunday Trading Laws?
Which they used to be in, before they decided that out-of-town was the future. Before the big chains decided the high street was the "new" future, you couldn't find any shops open after 8pm. Now you can. Again, I can't see how that doesn't benefit consumers.
I'm keeping an eye on the situation...
That's not the point though. Someone mentioned the law was helping smaller run stores when in fact it's probably done the opposite as we now have main chains like Tesco competing against them with their smaller stores.
I doubt very much if rescinding these laws would benefit the economy and increase jobs - shops would just change their rota's accordingly and more people would feel pressurized to work sundays or there'd be an increase in the use of self service checkouts