Assuming what you say is correct, what do you propose we do about it?
There's nothing that can be done, because to stop the spread of Islam in the UK you would have to impose measures that would be decried as draconian. Therefore it will continue to thrive and grow in an environment powerless to halt it, as the poster says.
There's nothing that can be done, because to stop the spread of Islam in the UK you would have to impose measures that would be decried as draconian. Therefore it will continue to thrive and grow in an environment powerless to halt it, as the poster says.
Yes, it's a Catch-22 situation, unsolvable without something else having to give.
You are moving the debate again - as I have said I would oppose Sharia Law and fully recognise the dangers it could pose. Just like I oppose call for the return of the death penalty; the recriminalisation of homosexuality; bringing back corporal punishment and all the other ultra-conservative things we spent decades trying to remove. What I can't agree with however is removing people for wanting those things.
Doesn't it depend on what those people, are wanting ? . So , it's ok to want Sharia law and to have the freedom to campaign for that , where do we draw the line ? . Can pedos campaign to have the age of sexual consent be brought down to 5 years . ?. Why shouldn't that be acceptable as well ? .
Doesn't it depend on what those people, are wanting ? . So , it's ok to want Sharia law and to have the freedom to campaign for that , where do we draw the line ? . Can pedos campaign to have the age of sexual consent be brought down to 5 years . ?. Why shouldn't that be acceptable as well ? .
Technically people can 'want' whatever they like. It's the actions they commit based on said wants that are the only things really worth discussing, ethically and legally.
Doesn't it depend on what those people, are wanting ? . So , it's ok to want Sharia law and to have the freedom to campaign for that , where do we draw the line ? . Can pedos campaign to have the age of sexual consent be brought down to 5 years . ?. Why shouldn't that be acceptable as well ? .
They are free to do that. Just because something is allowed doesn't mean that it us acceptable or a respectable opinion. Some of the views expressed on this thread verge on fascism (some clearly are supporters of that creed) and I find that repugnant. But they should still have freedom to expressed those views.
I draw the line at incitement - not imagined influence but when it actually puts a person or people in danger. But then again I really am a liberal.
You don't ignore the anti-police postings on here, you get very defensive. It's human nature to belong to a subculture, relate to it and defend it.
I'm not suggesting that you go around terrorising anti-police posters, but it's just to show that even with your head screwed on, like most Muslims who fortunately don't fall for the ISIS crap, it's not easy to ignore what feels like a personal affront to a subculture you associate yourself as belonging to.
It's a discussion forum, and I discuss the topic. I forget it when I'm not on here.
You don't have to be "in favour" of Islam. You can just accept that Muslims are entitled to their beliefs, like followers of any other religion.
It depends on what their beliefs are . If they believe all non Muslims should be beheaded , should we accept that ? .
Gays should be stoned to death ?.
Tolerance gone mad , again .
You seem to be focusing very much on Twitter, when my point was about alienation in general. There are certain sections of society who try to alienate and marginalise muslims. It just adds to the problem doesn't it?
I'm also a bit surprised that you use the word justification, as though you think there is one.
I've made it quite clear there is no justification, but people try to justify what is happening by blaming things the West have done, when in fact these people have been killing each other forever, and they move onto the rest of us if we get in the way.
Morons in the west who are not actually western in any way shape or form then join in, blaming us for what they do.
It's a discussion forum, and I discuss the topic. I forget it when I'm not on here.
You do react to it though, it's natural.
It's not such a big step to see how a British Muslim feeling disillusioned and isolated would react to even some of the hate on this thread and find solace in a dangerous place.
It's not such a big step to see how a British Muslim feeling disillusioned and isolated would react to even some of the hate on this thread and find solace in a dangerous place.
Typing replies is vastly different from seeing what others write as justification for terrorism I believe.
The hate is directed towards those involved in, and supporting the extremists. Most people don't condemn all muslims.
It depends on what their beliefs are . If they believe all non Muslims should be beheaded , should we accept that ? .
Gays should be stoned to death ?.
Tolerance gone mad , again .
It's a horrible belief, there are lots of horrible beliefs. Lots of non Muslims want the death penalty returned, that's horrible too. Catholics want abortion banned, cruel in some cases. Jehovah's Witnesses would rather watch family die than allow a blood transfusion, horrible.
But, Muslims are as free to be straight as Catholics are to refuse abortion. It doesn't mean it has to be something the whole UK has to do.
There's nothing that can be done, because to stop the spread of Islam in the UK you would have to impose measures that would be decried as draconian. Therefore it will continue to thrive and grow in an environment powerless to halt it, as the poster says.
We are not powerless to halt it, don't give up, all is not lost, believe me.
We've spent generations and generations dragging the UK forward in terms of the human rights of its citizens. The effort it has taken, from the Protestant Reformation through the English Civil War to the Enlightenment and the victory of reason and science over superstition and dogma, and for what? Just to tolerate more superstition, dogma and intolerance from a newly-imported religion and its growing number of adherents that recognise none of the values that we've strived so hard to create. The very idea is total anathema to me.
If you don't think people are entitled to their beliefs, how on earth do you propose to stop them? I'm not talking about celebrating illiberal beliefs in any way, just reluctantly accepting that they have the right to hold them, while of course arguing against any attempt to impinge on our freedoms. I don't see that we have any other choice - do you?
Doesn't it depend on what those people, are wanting ? . So , it's ok to want Sharia law and to have the freedom to campaign for that , where do we draw the line ? . Can pedos campaign to have the age of sexual consent be brought down to 5 years . ?. Why shouldn't that be acceptable as well ? .
It is ok for anyone to hold a view (as we don;t have thought-crime) and it is ok for them to campaign for it as long as it isn't promoting or inciting a criminal act. That is where the line is. The Paedophile Information Exchange in the 70s & 80s campaigned for their particular changes but they were prosecuted for inciting crimes against children and rightly so.
If people who want Sharia law start inciting the beheading of non-believers then I would expect them to also be arrested and prosecuted for criminal incitement. If they want to campaign for Islamic style divorce or the return of the DP or having four wives then, as these things would be acceptable as they are not inciting a crime.
If people who want Sharia law start inciting the beheading of non-believers then I would expect them to also be arrested and prosecuted for criminal incitement. If they want to campaign for Islamic style divorce or the return of the DP or having four wives then, as these things would be acceptable as they are not inciting a crime.
That's all well and good until the legal system you seem to rely on and trust in so much is replaced with a different one.
That's what some of us are so concerned about. You cannot assume things will remain the same as they have always been.
I suspect my 'firm action' would be met with squeals of outrage and disapproval.
Well that would depend on what that firm action is I guess.
Personally, as I've posted before, I want to see an end to religious mainstream schools. Schools should be all inclusive, not be run along religious grounds and be entirely secular all following the same curriculum or following curriculum approved by the Department for Education. There should be a complete ban on foreign curriculum, especially when those curriculum come from countries such as Saudi Arabia. The promotion and teaching of Wahhabism in schools should be banned.
Religious Education should still be taught, but it should look at all of the major religions, their contributions to history and culture and all be given equal prominence. The lessons should place more of an effort in examining their similarities, what they have in common and how they fit in with modern, secular societies.
Children are still free to attend Sunday schools, or teachings at Mosques, Temples or wherever outside school hours though, and of course there should be no restrictions on religion being practised and taught at home out with school.
All places of religious worship should require a license, but that license should be free of charge, with no restrictions on it being granted other than conditions which ban the teaching of violent extremism, the promotion of terrorism or terrorist groups and the banning of any extremist preacher who promotes such ideology. Not only would that mean a ban on hardline Islamic preachers though, but it would also probably mean a ban on US Evangelical preachers who promote intolerance towards homosexuals for example.
The media need to start providing much more of a voice to those moderate Imams and leaders who denounce extremism. We have started to see a few more of them on TV and in the press recently, and that is to be welcomed. Many Mosques run discussions and courses on how to try and turn people away from extremism, but often these stories never reach the national press. Generally they don't even make the local press, although they sometimes do so. We need to hear a lot more about them.
These Imams, Community Leaders and our security forces and government must get a handle on the propaganda war, which they are currently losing. These Imams, if they do not already do so, need to establish strong links with other faiths and places of worship such as Churches, Temples etc. The various religious leaders should hold regular discussions with each other's congregations, again with an emphasis on what binds them, on what they have in common rather than concentrating on their differences. Examine and discuss their common heritage and their common values, including how they fit in with and can be part of modern Britain.
Our special forces need to infiltrate these extremist groups, especially Isis. To root out and positively identify any British citizen involved. If that means putting themselves in danger by going undercover then so be it. Any British born citizen identified as an Isis member should have their details circulated to every port of entry, and be immediately arrested on their return and tried in a court of law. If they are found to have been involved in these atrocities they need to be tried appropriately, for murder for example, and sentenced to a whole life tariff if found guilty. For lesser crimes, such as the promotion of Isis, or just being a member, they should if guilty, be jailed for an appropriate time and be placed on the anti terrorist watchlist for a long period on their release. Any British citizen who is an immigrant granted citizenship should be stripped of their citizenship and immediately deported to their country of origin on their release, with their details passed to that country's security forces to monitor.
The media should stop talking about Isis as just the Islamic State. Place major emphasis on them being a Sunni group, that their targets are Christians, Yazidis, Kurdish Muslims and Shia Muslims. Isis try not to talk about the Kurds and the Shia as Muslims at all, we need to counter that so Muslims here, if they are not already aware, know full well Isis are a Sunni sectarian extremist movement.
It depends on what their beliefs are . If they believe all non Muslims should be beheaded , should we accept that ? .
Gays should be stoned to death ?.
Tolerance gone mad , again .
As long as they don't put their beliefs into practice, what choice do we have but to accept that people sometimes privately believe horrible things? I'm not of course suggesting that we should tolerate any public expressions of hatred, just being realistic.
My initial point was that your response is different because you don't have the same issues and you're sane (kind of ).
It's just to show that we all defend our own subculture and it's where the starting point for recruitment to likes of ISIS is.
The sanity issue is questionable.
The internet is full of crap, bile, threats etc, because it is easy to do sat in comfort. Very few are going to go any further though, because it takes a bit of effort.
Those that are going to act in this way don't need the internet to inspire them, not the likes of the triviality of twitter etc anyway.
I've made it quite clear there is no justification, but people try to justify what is happening by blaming things the West have done, when in fact these people have been killing each other forever, and they move onto the rest of us if we get in the way.
Morons in the west who are not actually western in any way shape or form then join in, blaming us for what they do.
You keep saying that people are trying to justify terrorism. I hope you didn't fabricate as much when you were a copper
Comments
There's nothing that can be done, because to stop the spread of Islam in the UK you would have to impose measures that would be decried as draconian. Therefore it will continue to thrive and grow in an environment powerless to halt it, as the poster says.
I'm glad I've got one fan on DS anyway
That was one of the reasons but not the only one.
Yes, it's a Catch-22 situation, unsolvable without something else having to give.
Well, there were official reasons and unofficial reasons. I don't think helping out a few Kurds were ever really either.
Doesn't it depend on what those people, are wanting ? . So , it's ok to want Sharia law and to have the freedom to campaign for that , where do we draw the line ? . Can pedos campaign to have the age of sexual consent be brought down to 5 years . ?. Why shouldn't that be acceptable as well ? .
Im A fan of you too
Technically people can 'want' whatever they like. It's the actions they commit based on said wants that are the only things really worth discussing, ethically and legally.
I'll put the badge in the post
They are free to do that. Just because something is allowed doesn't mean that it us acceptable or a respectable opinion. Some of the views expressed on this thread verge on fascism (some clearly are supporters of that creed) and I find that repugnant. But they should still have freedom to expressed those views.
I draw the line at incitement - not imagined influence but when it actually puts a person or people in danger. But then again I really am a liberal.
It's a discussion forum, and I discuss the topic. I forget it when I'm not on here.
It depends on what their beliefs are . If they believe all non Muslims should be beheaded , should we accept that ? .
Gays should be stoned to death ?.
Tolerance gone mad , again .
I've made it quite clear there is no justification, but people try to justify what is happening by blaming things the West have done, when in fact these people have been killing each other forever, and they move onto the rest of us if we get in the way.
Morons in the west who are not actually western in any way shape or form then join in, blaming us for what they do.
You do react to it though, it's natural.
It's not such a big step to see how a British Muslim feeling disillusioned and isolated would react to even some of the hate on this thread and find solace in a dangerous place.
Typing replies is vastly different from seeing what others write as justification for terrorism I believe.
The hate is directed towards those involved in, and supporting the extremists. Most people don't condemn all muslims.
It's a horrible belief, there are lots of horrible beliefs. Lots of non Muslims want the death penalty returned, that's horrible too. Catholics want abortion banned, cruel in some cases. Jehovah's Witnesses would rather watch family die than allow a blood transfusion, horrible.
But, Muslims are as free to be straight as Catholics are to refuse abortion. It doesn't mean it has to be something the whole UK has to do.
We are not powerless to halt it, don't give up, all is not lost, believe me.
If you don't think people are entitled to their beliefs, how on earth do you propose to stop them? I'm not talking about celebrating illiberal beliefs in any way, just reluctantly accepting that they have the right to hold them, while of course arguing against any attempt to impinge on our freedoms. I don't see that we have any other choice - do you?
It is ok for anyone to hold a view (as we don;t have thought-crime) and it is ok for them to campaign for it as long as it isn't promoting or inciting a criminal act. That is where the line is. The Paedophile Information Exchange in the 70s & 80s campaigned for their particular changes but they were prosecuted for inciting crimes against children and rightly so.
If people who want Sharia law start inciting the beheading of non-believers then I would expect them to also be arrested and prosecuted for criminal incitement. If they want to campaign for Islamic style divorce or the return of the DP or having four wives then, as these things would be acceptable as they are not inciting a crime.
My initial point was that your response is different because you don't have the same issues and you're sane (kind of
It's just to show that we all defend our own subculture and it's where the starting point for recruitment to likes of ISIS is.
That's all well and good until the legal system you seem to rely on and trust in so much is replaced with a different one.
That's what some of us are so concerned about. You cannot assume things will remain the same as they have always been.
Well that would depend on what that firm action is I guess.
Personally, as I've posted before, I want to see an end to religious mainstream schools. Schools should be all inclusive, not be run along religious grounds and be entirely secular all following the same curriculum or following curriculum approved by the Department for Education. There should be a complete ban on foreign curriculum, especially when those curriculum come from countries such as Saudi Arabia. The promotion and teaching of Wahhabism in schools should be banned.
Religious Education should still be taught, but it should look at all of the major religions, their contributions to history and culture and all be given equal prominence. The lessons should place more of an effort in examining their similarities, what they have in common and how they fit in with modern, secular societies.
Children are still free to attend Sunday schools, or teachings at Mosques, Temples or wherever outside school hours though, and of course there should be no restrictions on religion being practised and taught at home out with school.
All places of religious worship should require a license, but that license should be free of charge, with no restrictions on it being granted other than conditions which ban the teaching of violent extremism, the promotion of terrorism or terrorist groups and the banning of any extremist preacher who promotes such ideology. Not only would that mean a ban on hardline Islamic preachers though, but it would also probably mean a ban on US Evangelical preachers who promote intolerance towards homosexuals for example.
The media need to start providing much more of a voice to those moderate Imams and leaders who denounce extremism. We have started to see a few more of them on TV and in the press recently, and that is to be welcomed. Many Mosques run discussions and courses on how to try and turn people away from extremism, but often these stories never reach the national press. Generally they don't even make the local press, although they sometimes do so. We need to hear a lot more about them.
These Imams, Community Leaders and our security forces and government must get a handle on the propaganda war, which they are currently losing. These Imams, if they do not already do so, need to establish strong links with other faiths and places of worship such as Churches, Temples etc. The various religious leaders should hold regular discussions with each other's congregations, again with an emphasis on what binds them, on what they have in common rather than concentrating on their differences. Examine and discuss their common heritage and their common values, including how they fit in with and can be part of modern Britain.
Our special forces need to infiltrate these extremist groups, especially Isis. To root out and positively identify any British citizen involved. If that means putting themselves in danger by going undercover then so be it. Any British born citizen identified as an Isis member should have their details circulated to every port of entry, and be immediately arrested on their return and tried in a court of law. If they are found to have been involved in these atrocities they need to be tried appropriately, for murder for example, and sentenced to a whole life tariff if found guilty. For lesser crimes, such as the promotion of Isis, or just being a member, they should if guilty, be jailed for an appropriate time and be placed on the anti terrorist watchlist for a long period on their release. Any British citizen who is an immigrant granted citizenship should be stripped of their citizenship and immediately deported to their country of origin on their release, with their details passed to that country's security forces to monitor.
The media should stop talking about Isis as just the Islamic State. Place major emphasis on them being a Sunni group, that their targets are Christians, Yazidis, Kurdish Muslims and Shia Muslims. Isis try not to talk about the Kurds and the Shia as Muslims at all, we need to counter that so Muslims here, if they are not already aware, know full well Isis are a Sunni sectarian extremist movement.
Well, that's some of my ideas. What about yours?.
As long as they don't put their beliefs into practice, what choice do we have but to accept that people sometimes privately believe horrible things? I'm not of course suggesting that we should tolerate any public expressions of hatred, just being realistic.
The sanity issue is questionable.
The internet is full of crap, bile, threats etc, because it is easy to do sat in comfort. Very few are going to go any further though, because it takes a bit of effort.
Those that are going to act in this way don't need the internet to inspire them, not the likes of the triviality of twitter etc anyway.
You keep saying that people are trying to justify terrorism. I hope you didn't fabricate as much when you were a copper