Are you suggesting there are special criteria by which Gay people - like me - should be represented in a TV drama?
For me, gay people (like you) should be represented in the same way that left-handed people (like me) are now represented.
I know left-handed people who, fifty or sixty years ago in school were force to write with their left hand tied behind their back to "correct" their illness. Times have changed and left-handers are now allowed to write with what for us is our "normal" hand openly in public.
"The Village" might well have a school scene that pointed that out to us but normally, nobody cares.
I quite liked being allowed to deduce for myself the relationship between our heroes but I do admit that the line "I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time and this is my wife" still makes me laugh out loud.
And yet I've not heard anyone complain about inter-species relationships in Doctor Who before. Funny its only when both are of the same gender that it becomes an issue.
No, not at all. Offhand I can't think of any other inter species relationships but I'm sure you'll remind me. As others have said the main issue with the ape / lizard relationship story wise was that the relationship was mentioned over and over and over again ad nauseum. We got it first time thanks.
For me, gay people (like you) should be represented in the same way that left-handed people (like me) are now represented. I know left-handed people who, fifty or sixty years ago in school were force to write with their left hand tied behind their back to "correct" their illness. Times have changed and left-handers are now allowed to write with what for us is our "normal" hand openly in public.
By any standards, that is a poor comparison. Left handed people were never attacked in the streets, put in prison, locked up in mental asylums or executed simple for being left handed.
Marriage equality is a massive step forward for this country and having that reflected positively in a modern, family TV show like Doctor Who is wonderful (even if one half of that couple is a lizard lady from the dawn of time).
Heterosexuality is very prominent in almost every TV drama and movie ever made. All too often it's as though it were compulsory to see the male and female lead characters in bed together.
So don't spout this crap about homosexuality being included for the sake of it. Firstly it is clear that you ARE hung up about it. Secondly the main issue isn't about gay sex, it's about inter-species sexuality.
Sorry, apart from in The Shakespeare Code can't remember that many episodes of the male / female leads being in bed together in Doctor Who. Sure you're watching the right programme?
No, not at all. Offhand I can't think of any other inter species relationships but I'm sure you'll remind me. As others have said the main issue with the ape / lizard relationship story wise was that the relationship was mentioned over and over and over again ad nauseum. We got it first time thanks.
We understand the relationship because we have watched episodes containing those chars before.
What you have to take into consideration is this was the 1st episode of a brand NEW Doctor and there may have been a LOT of new viewers tuning in to watch who haven't watched any Matt Smith episodes and so will have no idea who Vestra and Jenny are and what their relationship is.
Sorry, apart from in The Shakespeare Code can't remember that many episodes of the male / female leads being in bed together in Doctor Who. Sure you're watching the right programme?
I think you are missing the point.
biomorph04 was talking generally about the predominance of heterosexual characters in drama, and the way you can quite casually see a man and a woman in bed together without it creating any ripples with the audience.
And yet include a same sex couple in an episode of Doctor Who and we have whole threads dedicated to discussing whether it was right or wrong.
That, as far as I am concerned, is discrimination.
Tbh I think they post just shows them up as 'omg I need to complain because gay people make me uncomfortable!'. To which my response it 'TOUGH!'
I loved the normalising of Vastra and Jenny's relationship in this and how they were treated like any other couple would. The kiss was a bit of a cop out but at least we got it!
No, not at all. Offhand I can't think of any other inter species relationships but I'm sure you'll remind me. As others have said the main issue with the ape / lizard relationship story wise was that the relationship was mentioned over and over and over again ad nauseum. We got it first time thanks.
So if it had been mentioned just the once or (perhaps) not directly referenced at all, that would have been more palatable?
Tbh I think they post just shows them up as 'omg I need to complain because gay people make me uncomfortable!'. To which my response it 'TOUGH!'
I loved the normalising of Vastra and Jenny's relationship in this and how they were treated like any other couple would. The kiss was a bit of a cop out but at least we got it!
Yes, you're right. And I loved the kiss, even if they did need to create a plot device to justify it!
Tbh I think they post just shows them up as 'omg I need to complain because gay people make me uncomfortable!'. To which my response it 'TOUGH!'
I loved the normalising of Vastra and Jenny's relationship in this and how they were treated like any other couple would. The kiss was a bit of a cop out but at least we got it!
I'm not uncomfortable with gay sex.
In fact I used to tape gay porn off the TV and sell the videos.
So if it had been mentioned just the once or (perhaps) not directly referenced at all, that would have been more palatable?
People seem to be missing the point I think. Why did the writers need to hammer home they were gay/married? Had they been straight it wouldnt have happened,it's nothing to do with being palatable. Seems it was being deliberately re-in forced for some reason. But a lesbian inter species kiss is fin e by me,more of it lol.
My thoughts on episode itself,messy first third then improved,Jenna is best companion yet and her and Peter will be a great team,thought the ending was great(harked back to "Rose") .Also"Im not your boyfriend" should end the boring unrequited love storyline thats attached itself to modern Who.
Have some big issues with Moffat's era thus far, but I quite liked this episode. Liked Capaldi but don't really feel like we got a sense of his doctor just yet, given that he was so muddled and confused. He's said to be darker, but so far he just seemed wacky and apologetic towards Clara. Will be interesting to see how his doctor is on his first 'real' (as in non post regenerative fully formed personality traits) episode next week.
Oh, and the whole 'missy' thing which I would assume is the arc seems interesting, but I really hope it's something straightforward and not ruined by being 'an aspect of Clara' or something equally stupid.
Voted average, but first episodes are never the greatest.
Just been chatting with the relatives, all of us Dr Who fans from the beginning.
Was not just me then, but I could not make out what Capaldi was saying in the first half hour. Stuck with it and once in the Dining room the plot began and could hear him.
Not really seeing much of his acting before, I think he will make a good Dr Who though and more of a traditional one for me anyway, even though I have enjoyed the more modern recent ones of Matt, David and Chris.
Did see a bit of Capaldi in the Musketeers and to be honest thought he may not be up to it from his performance in that.
Anyway, did enjoy the better part of the show and I can see him being ok.
Was not a fan of the new theme music, something the BBC should just leave to the original. They made a hash of that and the titles looked very naff with the clocks, thats going to have to change, must have been a last minute, oops we forgot moment.
Did want to listen to the music at the end to compare, but the damn continuity guy spoke over that, idiot. Will have to check out on iPlayer to hear.
People seem to be missing the point I think. Why did the writers need to hammer home they were gay/married? Had they been straight it wouldnt have happened,it's nothing to do with being palatable. Seems it was being deliberately re-in forced for some reason. But a lesbian inter species kiss is fin e by me,more of it lol.
I understand entirely that is the point that is being made. But I would suggest if you looked at other episodes you would see it is not unusual for straight characters to state and state again that they are heterosexual or in a heterosexual marriage/relationship.
Jackie Tyler did it. Rose did it. Martha did. Amy and Rory did little else. For goodness sake, Donna's first episode was all about her marriage to a man! And yet, did we have thread after thread dedicated to discussing how they were 'over emphasising' their heterosexuality? Funnily enough, no we didn't.
biomorph04 was talking generally about the predominance of heterosexual characters in drama, and the way you can quite casually see a man and a woman in bed together without it creating any ripples with the audience.
And yet include a same sex couple in an episode of Doctor Who and we have whole threads dedicated to discussing whether it was right or wrong.
That, as far as I am concerned, is discrimination.
To me the discrimination is the programme making such a big issue of it by the constant need to mention it. The programme doesn't do the same for hetrosexual relationships, so, in my view, it is giving the impression that homosexual ones are out of the ordinary by highlighting it so much.
To me the discrimination is the programme making such a big issue of it by the constant need to mention it. The programme doesn't do the same for hetrosexual relationships, so, in my view, it is giving the impression that homosexual ones are out of the ordinary by highlighting it so much.
I thought Peter Capaldi was great, I can see him going on to become one of the best Doctors ever. I can see why it might disappoint as a cinema offering, there wasn't much to warrant a big screen cinema "experience". It was all about character and dialogue, and there were some extremely well scripted scenes between the leading participants.
I enjoyed it immensely.
To me the discrimination is the programme making such a big issue of it by the constant need to mention it. The programme doesn't do the same for hetrosexual relationships, so, in my view, it is giving the impression that homosexual ones are out of the ordinary by highlighting it so much.
As I've mentioned already, the show has given an enormous amount of predominance to heterosexual characters and relationships since its relaunch in 2005 - we had two and a half years of the Amy/Rory romance alone!
So if it had been mentioned just the once or (perhaps) not directly referenced at all, that would have been more palatable?
Not more "palatable" but more natural. Also, I don't get why you are supporting a gay inter species relationship. Whatever way you look at it, inter species relationships are not generally acceptable (as I mentioned before the crime of bestiality) and are considered abnormal. So by promoting a lesbian relationship between two different species what Moffat is effectively doing is linking being gay to being abnormal. So I don't see how that is a good depiction of gay people in anyway whatsoever.
As I've mentioned already, the show has given an enormous amount of predominance to heterosexual characters and relationships since its relaunch in 2005 - we had two and a half years of the Amy/Rory romance alone!
I enjoyed Deep Breath, I know the pace was a bit off for the first half but I think it helped because it allowed for breathing space and proper conversations and dialogue for a change instead of just snappy retorts going back and forth. Enjoyed seeing more of Vastra & co and their daily lives. The dinosaur was random but funny. I have no qualms with Vastra & Jenny, it's been a fact for ages that they're a couple so them being married changes nothing and don't married characters tend to show affection for each other anyway, man, woman or lizard woman? It's Doctor Who, those complaining about interspecies same gender kissing, what about when Capt Jack kissed 9? It's all just love people, get over it.
To me the discrimination is the programme making such a big issue of it by the constant need to mention it. The programme doesn't do the same for hetrosexual relationships, so, in my view, it is giving the impression that homosexual ones are out of the ordinary by highlighting it so much.
It was important to the storyline. Vastra was explaining why she had to pretend Jenny was her maid, as homosexuality would have been "a big issue" in Victorian times and it still is in many countries today. Brilliant work by Moffat. Besides, their banter could have just as easily been done with a straight couple, if there was a straight married couple in Doctor Who.
Comments
For me, gay people (like you) should be represented in the same way that left-handed people (like me) are now represented.
I know left-handed people who, fifty or sixty years ago in school were force to write with their left hand tied behind their back to "correct" their illness. Times have changed and left-handers are now allowed to write with what for us is our "normal" hand openly in public.
"The Village" might well have a school scene that pointed that out to us but normally, nobody cares.
I quite liked being allowed to deduce for myself the relationship between our heroes but I do admit that the line "I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time and this is my wife" still makes me laugh out loud.
No, not at all. Offhand I can't think of any other inter species relationships but I'm sure you'll remind me. As others have said the main issue with the ape / lizard relationship story wise was that the relationship was mentioned over and over and over again ad nauseum. We got it first time thanks.
By any standards, that is a poor comparison. Left handed people were never attacked in the streets, put in prison, locked up in mental asylums or executed simple for being left handed.
Marriage equality is a massive step forward for this country and having that reflected positively in a modern, family TV show like Doctor Who is wonderful (even if one half of that couple is a lizard lady from the dawn of time).
Sorry, apart from in The Shakespeare Code can't remember that many episodes of the male / female leads being in bed together in Doctor Who. Sure you're watching the right programme?
We understand the relationship because we have watched episodes containing those chars before.
What you have to take into consideration is this was the 1st episode of a brand NEW Doctor and there may have been a LOT of new viewers tuning in to watch who haven't watched any Matt Smith episodes and so will have no idea who Vestra and Jenny are and what their relationship is.
Except that people generally don't get randomly beaten up or murdered for being left-handed.
Left handed people don't tend to have powerful religious leaders and politicians slagging them off every day.
And left handed people don't habitually feel a need to hide their left handedness in public etc
Damn right
I think you are missing the point.
biomorph04 was talking generally about the predominance of heterosexual characters in drama, and the way you can quite casually see a man and a woman in bed together without it creating any ripples with the audience.
And yet include a same sex couple in an episode of Doctor Who and we have whole threads dedicated to discussing whether it was right or wrong.
That, as far as I am concerned, is discrimination.
Tbh I think they post just shows them up as 'omg I need to complain because gay people make me uncomfortable!'. To which my response it 'TOUGH!'
I loved the normalising of Vastra and Jenny's relationship in this and how they were treated like any other couple would. The kiss was a bit of a cop out but at least we got it!
So if it had been mentioned just the once or (perhaps) not directly referenced at all, that would have been more palatable?
Yes, you're right. And I loved the kiss, even if they did need to create a plot device to justify it!
I'm not uncomfortable with gay sex.
In fact I used to tape gay porn off the TV and sell the videos.
People seem to be missing the point I think. Why did the writers need to hammer home they were gay/married? Had they been straight it wouldnt have happened,it's nothing to do with being palatable. Seems it was being deliberately re-in forced for some reason. But a lesbian inter species kiss is fin e by me,more of it lol.
My thoughts on episode itself,messy first third then improved,Jenna is best companion yet and her and Peter will be a great team,thought the ending was great(harked back to "Rose") .Also"Im not your boyfriend" should end the boring unrequited love storyline thats attached itself to modern Who.
Oh, and the whole 'missy' thing which I would assume is the arc seems interesting, but I really hope it's something straightforward and not ruined by being 'an aspect of Clara' or something equally stupid.
Just been chatting with the relatives, all of us Dr Who fans from the beginning.
Was not just me then, but I could not make out what Capaldi was saying in the first half hour. Stuck with it and once in the Dining room the plot began and could hear him.
Not really seeing much of his acting before, I think he will make a good Dr Who though and more of a traditional one for me anyway, even though I have enjoyed the more modern recent ones of Matt, David and Chris.
Did see a bit of Capaldi in the Musketeers and to be honest thought he may not be up to it from his performance in that.
Anyway, did enjoy the better part of the show and I can see him being ok.
Was not a fan of the new theme music, something the BBC should just leave to the original. They made a hash of that and the titles looked very naff with the clocks, thats going to have to change, must have been a last minute, oops we forgot moment.
Did want to listen to the music at the end to compare, but the damn continuity guy spoke over that, idiot. Will have to check out on iPlayer to hear.
I understand entirely that is the point that is being made. But I would suggest if you looked at other episodes you would see it is not unusual for straight characters to state and state again that they are heterosexual or in a heterosexual marriage/relationship.
Jackie Tyler did it. Rose did it. Martha did. Amy and Rory did little else. For goodness sake, Donna's first episode was all about her marriage to a man! And yet, did we have thread after thread dedicated to discussing how they were 'over emphasising' their heterosexuality? Funnily enough, no we didn't.
To me the discrimination is the programme making such a big issue of it by the constant need to mention it. The programme doesn't do the same for hetrosexual relationships, so, in my view, it is giving the impression that homosexual ones are out of the ordinary by highlighting it so much.
I think that maybe the SFX budget for Jurassic Park was just a tiny bit more than that for DW.
That's an interesting take on it.
I enjoyed it immensely.
As I've mentioned already, the show has given an enormous amount of predominance to heterosexual characters and relationships since its relaunch in 2005 - we had two and a half years of the Amy/Rory romance alone!
Not more "palatable" but more natural. Also, I don't get why you are supporting a gay inter species relationship. Whatever way you look at it, inter species relationships are not generally acceptable (as I mentioned before the crime of bestiality) and are considered abnormal. So by promoting a lesbian relationship between two different species what Moffat is effectively doing is linking being gay to being abnormal. So I don't see how that is a good depiction of gay people in anyway whatsoever.
That was tedious as well.
It was important to the storyline. Vastra was explaining why she had to pretend Jenny was her maid, as homosexuality would have been "a big issue" in Victorian times and it still is in many countries today. Brilliant work by Moffat. Besides, their banter could have just as easily been done with a straight couple, if there was a straight married couple in Doctor Who.