Unfortunately what tends to happen is that it reinforces the victimhood complex that feminists tend to cling toward, to enforce the suggestion that men are reacting against her because of misogyny and using a small minority of hateful comments and tweets to extrapolate the idea that all men are sexist. I do wish people would not react so strongly and I also strongly condemn the likes of rape threats and hate speech aimed at feminists, because in the long term, it aids feminists, it does not challenge their rhetoric and ideology.
...you condemn rape threats because they aid feminism, not because they're basically just hideous no matter who they're aimed at?
This video says more than I ever could and has been supported by entertainment pros such as Tim Schafer and Joss Whedon.
Depressing, disturbing, disgusting. I love how she also points out some video games that show mature themes without reveling in the nastiness of them. Video games are not evil, the rape culture we currently have is.
This has got to stop, this rape and misogyny culture has to end if we are ever to deal with the ongoing problem of rape in society, enough is enough.
(btw, this woman has received death threats for making these videos, fortunately I have received no such thing for ranting about Game of Thrones on here, just called a troll a few million times)
I think this is ill informed and rather uneducated. Yes there is rape in GoT, but it also has more than it's fair share of strong, female characters who have complex personalities. I was much more offended by the Wolf of Wall Street, a film that treated women not just to be used as sexual objects but as if they had no personality or importance.
The truth is that we have a complex culture, some misogeny, some ridiculing men for their emasculation (you see this mostly in adverts I.e silly dad, husband can't cook, man makes stupid mistake etc etc). Rape on screen does not offend me any more than other types of violence as long as it is part of the narrative.
Unfortunately what tends to happen is that it reinforces the victimhood complex that feminists tend to cling toward, to enforce the suggestion that men are reacting against her because of misogyny and using a small minority of hateful comments and tweets to extrapolate the idea that all men are sexist. I do wish people would not react so strongly and I also strongly condemn the likes of rape threats and hate speech aimed at feminists, because in the long term, it aids feminists, it does not challenge their rhetoric and ideology.
There are different degrees of what feminism is though, and not all feminists thrive on victimhood, or use self fulfilling prophecy tactics. I think it's due to some strident feminists who made "All men are potential rapists" popular, that a lot of people base their ideas on what a feminist is. But that's probably a whole different discussion.
Unfortunately what tends to happen is that it reinforces the victimhood complex that feminists tend to cling toward, to enforce the suggestion that men are reacting against her because of misogyny and using a small minority of hateful comments and tweets to extrapolate the idea that all men are sexist. I do wish people would not react so strongly and I also strongly condemn the likes of rape threats and hate speech aimed at feminists, because in the long term, it aids feminists, it does not challenge their rhetoric and ideology.
Yes, it's all the feminists fault that they get threats of rape, violence and murder made against them. You could say that they were.....asking for it? I also agree that the worst thing about threats of rape and violence is that feminists can point to them and say there might be a bit of a problem in certain circles.....
(btw, this woman has received death threats for making these videos, fortunately I have received no such thing for ranting about Game of Thrones on here, just called a troll a few million times)
Nobody's upset with your feminism or anti-rape culture stances, they're just pissed off with your illogical rants about Game of Thrones.
I mean if Game of Thrones is so pro-rape, why were fans so upset that a leading character was turned into a rapist? The complaints about this incident primarily related to the fact he had committed an act they felt was completely unredeemable and how they couldn't like or root for the character from that point onwards.
I do think there's a debate to be had about whether the show is misogynistic or simply depicts misogyny though...
...you condemn rape threats because they aid feminism, not because they're basically just hideous no matter who they're aimed at?
You have completely misinterpreted my point. Rape threats are heinous, no one will dispute that but they are used to extrapolate the idea by feminists that all men who critique them are rape apologists who are prepared to make evil threats when the reality is that only a small minority of critics of feminism would do so, but its this minority who get held up as prime examples of anyone who is anti-feminist.
And believe me, after seeing Sarkeesian's latest video, there's a lot of things I'd like to comment on her video... oh, wait, she's disabled comments so I can't scrutinize her work in a mature and civilised manner.
There are different degrees of what feminism is though, and not all feminists thrive on victimhood, or use self fulfilling prophecy tactics. I think it's due to some strident feminists who made "All men are potential rapists" popular, that a lot of people base their ideas on what a feminist is. But that's probably a whole different discussion.
Its telling that Madonna refuses to classify herself as a feminist, but as a humanist. The problem is, its the more outspoken feminists who say the most outlandish slurs, react in the most extreme way and aim to curtail freedom of speech to those critical of them which does everyone else no favours whatsoever. But if these things are not called out on, then the danger is that it'll be taken in as fact. If you need evidence of this, the left wing newspapers are already lapping up Sarkeesian's video which could with research and inquiry, be debunked in less than a few minutes using science and facts.
This video says more than I ever could and has been supported by entertainment pros such as Tim Schafer and Joss Whedon.
Depressing, disturbing, disgusting. I love how she also points out some video games that show mature themes without reveling in the nastiness of them. Video games are not evil, the rape culture we currently have is.
This has got to stop, this rape and misogyny culture has to end if we are ever to deal with the ongoing problem of rape in society, enough is enough.
(btw, this woman has received death threats for making these videos, fortunately I have received no such thing for ranting about Game of Thrones on here, just called a troll a few million times)
Again? Seek help. Seek professional psychiatric help, and seek it soon.
Yes, it's all the feminists fault that they get threats of rape, violence and murder made against them. You could say that they were.....asking for it? I also agree that the worst thing about threats of rape and violence is that feminists can point to them and say there might be a bit of a problem in certain circles.....
No one is saying they deserve it, I've already condemned in the strongest terms the sickening tweets made to Sarkeesian in the past few days. However, the lines between those who critique the ideology of feminists in a calm, measured and polite manner and those filled with hate and misogyny who attack feminists with vile rhetoric is being blurred dangerously to the point where even promoting equality can have you declared a rape apologist and a misogynist. I don't think name calling helps in such emotive issues, rather it hinders healthy debate.
Its telling that Madonna refuses to classify herself as a feminist, but as a humanist. The problem is, its the more outspoken feminists who say the most outlandish slurs, react in the most extreme way and aim to curtail freedom of speech to those critical of them which does everyone else no favours whatsoever. But if these things are not called out on, then the danger is that it'll be taken in as fact. If you need evidence of this, the left wing newspapers are already lapping up Sarkeesian's video which could with research and inquiry, be debunked in less than a few minutes using science and facts.
I know what you mean, I couldn't bring myself to call myself a "feminist" even if I agreed with the majority of what feminism stands for. The word itself has become a stick to beat people with in a way, like the word "liberal".
I don't know about left leaning newspapers lapping up her nonsense (not the issue, sexism in games does exist, just her series is poor at best). I've seen vids like Thundef00ts that cry that feminism is a poison and destroying atheism, let's just say it's not his finest moment. ;-)
I agree. Attack the argument, except wait... video games are sexist.
Just because you like them, doesn't make them less so. I love video games, but I'm not going to defend how badly many treat women and how they are predominantly aimed at straight men. As a straight man who is not a sexist violent psychopath, I ask more from the computer games industry.
I think some computer games have moved on, and are capable of being intelligent story driven pieces as well as challenging and interactive. They still have a long way to go as a genre.
People defending games and attacking this women personally, as biased and dubious as some of her argument are, just confirm that she's pretty much correct in the basic truths. If you can't hardly the sexist aspects of games with suitable perspective, then you shouldn't be playing.
Is it actually "sexist" to target things at the different genders of children?
Is it any more sexist that the vast majority of video games are aimed at boys than it is for, say, the vast majority of dolls to be targeted at girls?
There are certainly some rather dubious things in a small number of video games but, unless I'm mistaken, those games usually have an ESRB 18 rating because they're intended for adults and if those games get played by kids then it's the shops and parents who're at fault in exactly the same way they would be if a kid spends their time watching adult-themed movies.
I know what you mean, I couldn't bring myself to call myself a "feminist" even if I agreed with the majority of what feminism stands for. The word itself has become a stick to beat people with in a way, like the word "liberal".
I don't know about left leaning newspapers lapping up her nonsense (not the issue, sexism in games does exist, just her series is poor at best). I've seen vids like Thundef00ts that cry that feminism is a poison and destroying atheism, let's just say it's not his finest moment. ;-)
I think some of the anger against Sarkeesian would be subdued if she allowed critics of her work to be able to comment and ask her to merely defend her position, but that will never happen.
Like Zoe Quinn blocking, banning and labelling critics of her as "terrorists" whilst refusing to defend her stance this week.
I asked Caroline Cirado-Perez a civil question on Twitter last night whilst confirming men commit the most crime, what the percentage of victims of crime are in terms of gender? No-one clarified because overall, men are also the majority of victims of crime as well as the perpetrators, but that fact was ignored.
A lot of the cries of sexism against video games could be debunked with science, reason and peer reviewed research such as sexual dimorphism and for that point, I entirely agree with thunderf00t, as well as other commentators on the issue.
I think people confuse equality with feminism, and I endorse equality. I don't endorse anything founded in lies, exaggeration and censorship as is being promoted by a number of feminists in the public eye.
I think some of the anger against Sarkeesian would be subdued if she allowed critics of her work to be able to comment and ask her to merely defend her position, but that will never happen. {/QUOTE]
Agreed, block those that make threats, or troll, but you should allow for critique.
A lot of the cries of sexism against video games could be debunked with science, reason and peer reviewed research such as sexual dimorphism and for that point, I entirely agree with thunderf00t, as well as other commentators on the issue.
If TF had just stated that his stance was the free market place of ideas, then I would be in agreement. However I felt he went too far by talking about her use of makeup or the way she dresses, that she sexualises herself while decrying the sexualisation of video game characters. Let's stick to the points she makes and address them.
This video says more than I ever could and has been supported by entertainment pros such as Tim Schafer and Joss Whedon.
Depressing, disturbing, disgusting. I love how she also points out some video games that show mature themes without reveling in the nastiness of them. Video games are not evil, the rape culture we currently have is.
This has got to stop, this rape and misogyny culture has to end if we are ever to deal with the ongoing problem of rape in society, enough is enough.
(btw, this woman has received death threats for making these videos, fortunately I have received no such thing for ranting about Game of Thrones on here, just called a troll a few million times)
I wouldn't buy any video game that I knew had rape in that I couldn't avoid if I wanted to progress further in the game.
So you are complaining about boobs and bums being used to sell a product as it demeans someone, yet you band rape around like it was a dog toy and thats ok?
Is it actually "sexist" to target things at the different genders of children?
Is it any more sexist that the vast majority of video games are aimed at boys than it is for, say, the vast majority of dolls to be targeted at girls?
There are certainly some rather dubious things in a small number of video games but, unless I'm mistaken, those games usually have an ESRB 18 rating because they're intended for adults and if those games get played by kids then it's the shops and parents who're at fault in exactly the same way they would be if a kid spends their time watching adult-themed movies.
There are many types of dolls for boys, they just call them action figures. Most areas of entertainment are more geared towards men than women, movies, sport, music...
As for gaming, to use a genre that is so open to imagination and creativity for just the lowest common denominator of lazy entertainment is quite sad.
It doesn't have to be explicit, some PG games have sexist themes and poor female characters.
Developers just don't know how to aim games at female audiences, or even to simply not alienate them. I'm not talking about games with princesses or make up tips btw, I'm talking about inclusion and depth.
So yes I do think it's sexist to exclude people from a form of entertainment in a way, through either neglect or stereotyping, it's just so needless.
I'd like to just mention The Last of Us and the Walking Dead though, as examples of rounded characters of both sex and plenty violence set at the right level of glorification.
There are many types of dolls for boys, they just call them action figures. Most areas of entertainment are more geared towards men than women, movies, sport, music...
As for gaming, to use a genre that is so open to imagination and creativity for just the lowest common denominator of lazy entertainment is quite sad.
It doesn't have to be explicit, some PG games have sexist themes and poor female characters.
Developers just don't know how to aim games at female audiences, or even to simply not alienate them.
So yes I do think it's sexist to exclude people from a form of entertainment in a way, through either neglect or stereotyping, it's just so needless.
You seem to be excusing one form of "sexism" which favours females while, at the same time, being critical of "sexism" which favours males and that's rather hypocritical.
I'm sure that there are lentil-eaters around who'd much rather that all children played with unisex toys and that the music, movie and advertising industry was equally androgynous.
The reality, however, is that boys and girls and men and women like different stuff and a free market should be willing and able to supply products to cater for both markets and, more importantly, the success of products will depend on there being a receptive consumer base for the things that are produced.
Or, in short, if girls wanted girly video games, and hordes of girls were likely to play video games if girly games were available, you can be damned sure the publishers would be providing them.
You seem to be excusing one form of "sexism" which favours females while, at the same time, being critical of "sexism" which favours males and that's rather hypocritical.
I'm sure that there are lentil-eaters around who'd much rather that all children played with unisex toys and that the music, movie and advertising industry was equally androgynous.
The reality, however, is that boys and girls and men and women like different stuff and a free market should be willing and able to supply products to cater for both markets and, more importantly, the success of products will depend on there being a receptive consumer base for the things that are produced.
Or, in short, if girls wanted girly video games, and hordes of girls were likely to play video games if girly games were available, you can be damned sure the publishers would be providing them.
How do you think I am excusing a form of sexism that favours women?
I never asked for 'girly' games. I am not asking for adrodgeny either.
I am not suggesting aiming games at women by making them pink and sparkly
I am suggesting not to alienate them, and to include more rounded female characters.
"Men" and "women" don't have different tastes. People have all kinds of tastes, and there's just no need to exclude anyone by mindless stereotyping. Why should the taste for sexism be catered to at all?
If a girl wants to kill zombies, good. Why should she have to sit through a lap dance cut scene first?
That is what I'm trying to get across.
We all know, that the 'free market' just leads to click bait rage, violence and tits. This is why we all have to ask for better quality and be selective.
***
Your reasoning that girls don't play games because they don't want to is totally the wrong way round.
Firstly, many do. And it's a tribute to their intelligence that they can look beyond the sexism and still enjoy games despite it being fairly endemic. One of my favourite youtube gamers is Hannah of the Yogscast.
And secondly, even as far as 'girly games' go, it's still untapped and neglected market as FarmVille and The Sims proves. Most girly games are ridiculous stabs at what a computer nerd who has never met a woman thinks girls like.
It's untapped as I said before, people don't understand how to market games widely, because they are lazy and mainly blokes. Call that a generalisation if you wish, but it's true.
Even as a seasoned gamer I find it hard to defend some of the examples featured in her video. Casual sexism and misogyny is a problem in some game worlds (but by no means all) and even if games are predominantly aimed at a young male audience it is no excuse to depict women in situations where they are victims of casual violence especially where it is not essential to the overall game narrative.
Rockstar seem to be particularly guilty of this, featuring repeated "missions" where the player is directed to intervene in scenes of violence against helpless women. This, I think, is lazy writing and something which has always frustrated me when I have attempted to play the GTA games, which promise so much with a lush, detailed and expansive game world and then go and ruin it with a paper-thin plot punctuated by boring and repetitive missions.
I do take exception to the scene from Bioshock, which was taken entirely out of context and which actually introduces a critical and shocking plot twist to the story.
That notwithstanding, I do think that there are issues in gaming which do need addressing and it does not help if both sides of the argument refuse to engage in a rational and adult debate without resorting to name-calling, threats or unreasonable or unfounded accusations.
The separate issue of games being largely male-centred is almost entirely irrelevant. Gamers are predominantly male, that's a fact, and if developers want to write games from a male perspective then that's entirely understandable. If devs want to make female-centred or neutral game narratives that's also fine, too, of course. You cater for your audience, so the trope of a game character rescuing a "damsel in distress" is fine (and God knows I've also spent many game hours rescuing male NPC's as well...)
Comments
...you condemn rape threats because they aid feminism, not because they're basically just hideous no matter who they're aimed at?
Lol, what the hell?
Do people really think things like this.
I think this is ill informed and rather uneducated. Yes there is rape in GoT, but it also has more than it's fair share of strong, female characters who have complex personalities. I was much more offended by the Wolf of Wall Street, a film that treated women not just to be used as sexual objects but as if they had no personality or importance.
The truth is that we have a complex culture, some misogeny, some ridiculing men for their emasculation (you see this mostly in adverts I.e silly dad, husband can't cook, man makes stupid mistake etc etc). Rape on screen does not offend me any more than other types of violence as long as it is part of the narrative.
There are different degrees of what feminism is though, and not all feminists thrive on victimhood, or use self fulfilling prophecy tactics. I think it's due to some strident feminists who made "All men are potential rapists" popular, that a lot of people base their ideas on what a feminist is. But that's probably a whole different discussion.
Yes, it's all the feminists fault that they get threats of rape, violence and murder made against them. You could say that they were.....asking for it? I also agree that the worst thing about threats of rape and violence is that feminists can point to them and say there might be a bit of a problem in certain circles.....
Nobody's upset with your feminism or anti-rape culture stances, they're just pissed off with your illogical rants about Game of Thrones.
I mean if Game of Thrones is so pro-rape, why were fans so upset that a leading character was turned into a rapist? The complaints about this incident primarily related to the fact he had committed an act they felt was completely unredeemable and how they couldn't like or root for the character from that point onwards.
I do think there's a debate to be had about whether the show is misogynistic or simply depicts misogyny though...
I've just watched the entire 4 series in the last week, and I've now got severe withdrawal symptoms.
And believe me, after seeing Sarkeesian's latest video, there's a lot of things I'd like to comment on her video... oh, wait, she's disabled comments so I can't scrutinize her work in a mature and civilised manner.
Again? Seek help. Seek professional psychiatric help, and seek it soon.
She makes a very poor argument on most of her 'trope' videos.
This is what we should really be concerned about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM
I know what you mean, I couldn't bring myself to call myself a "feminist" even if I agreed with the majority of what feminism stands for. The word itself has become a stick to beat people with in a way, like the word "liberal".
I don't know about left leaning newspapers lapping up her nonsense (not the issue, sexism in games does exist, just her series is poor at best). I've seen vids like Thundef00ts that cry that feminism is a poison and destroying atheism, let's just say it's not his finest moment. ;-)
Is it actually "sexist" to target things at the different genders of children?
Is it any more sexist that the vast majority of video games are aimed at boys than it is for, say, the vast majority of dolls to be targeted at girls?
There are certainly some rather dubious things in a small number of video games but, unless I'm mistaken, those games usually have an ESRB 18 rating because they're intended for adults and if those games get played by kids then it's the shops and parents who're at fault in exactly the same way they would be if a kid spends their time watching adult-themed movies.
Like Zoe Quinn blocking, banning and labelling critics of her as "terrorists" whilst refusing to defend her stance this week.
I asked Caroline Cirado-Perez a civil question on Twitter last night whilst confirming men commit the most crime, what the percentage of victims of crime are in terms of gender? No-one clarified because overall, men are also the majority of victims of crime as well as the perpetrators, but that fact was ignored.
A lot of the cries of sexism against video games could be debunked with science, reason and peer reviewed research such as sexual dimorphism and for that point, I entirely agree with thunderf00t, as well as other commentators on the issue.
I think people confuse equality with feminism, and I endorse equality. I don't endorse anything founded in lies, exaggeration and censorship as is being promoted by a number of feminists in the public eye.
I wouldn't buy any video game that I knew had rape in that I couldn't avoid if I wanted to progress further in the game.
There are many types of dolls for boys, they just call them action figures. Most areas of entertainment are more geared towards men than women, movies, sport, music...
As for gaming, to use a genre that is so open to imagination and creativity for just the lowest common denominator of lazy entertainment is quite sad.
It doesn't have to be explicit, some PG games have sexist themes and poor female characters.
Developers just don't know how to aim games at female audiences, or even to simply not alienate them. I'm not talking about games with princesses or make up tips btw, I'm talking about inclusion and depth.
So yes I do think it's sexist to exclude people from a form of entertainment in a way, through either neglect or stereotyping, it's just so needless.
I'd like to just mention The Last of Us and the Walking Dead though, as examples of rounded characters of both sex and plenty violence set at the right level of glorification.
You seem to be excusing one form of "sexism" which favours females while, at the same time, being critical of "sexism" which favours males and that's rather hypocritical.
I'm sure that there are lentil-eaters around who'd much rather that all children played with unisex toys and that the music, movie and advertising industry was equally androgynous.
The reality, however, is that boys and girls and men and women like different stuff and a free market should be willing and able to supply products to cater for both markets and, more importantly, the success of products will depend on there being a receptive consumer base for the things that are produced.
Or, in short, if girls wanted girly video games, and hordes of girls were likely to play video games if girly games were available, you can be damned sure the publishers would be providing them.
How do you think I am excusing a form of sexism that favours women?
I never asked for 'girly' games. I am not asking for adrodgeny either.
I am not suggesting aiming games at women by making them pink and sparkly
I am suggesting not to alienate them, and to include more rounded female characters.
"Men" and "women" don't have different tastes. People have all kinds of tastes, and there's just no need to exclude anyone by mindless stereotyping. Why should the taste for sexism be catered to at all?
If a girl wants to kill zombies, good. Why should she have to sit through a lap dance cut scene first?
That is what I'm trying to get across.
We all know, that the 'free market' just leads to click bait rage, violence and tits. This is why we all have to ask for better quality and be selective.
***
Your reasoning that girls don't play games because they don't want to is totally the wrong way round.
Firstly, many do. And it's a tribute to their intelligence that they can look beyond the sexism and still enjoy games despite it being fairly endemic. One of my favourite youtube gamers is Hannah of the Yogscast.
And secondly, even as far as 'girly games' go, it's still untapped and neglected market as FarmVille and The Sims proves. Most girly games are ridiculous stabs at what a computer nerd who has never met a woman thinks girls like.
It's untapped as I said before, people don't understand how to market games widely, because they are lazy and mainly blokes. Call that a generalisation if you wish, but it's true.
Rockstar seem to be particularly guilty of this, featuring repeated "missions" where the player is directed to intervene in scenes of violence against helpless women. This, I think, is lazy writing and something which has always frustrated me when I have attempted to play the GTA games, which promise so much with a lush, detailed and expansive game world and then go and ruin it with a paper-thin plot punctuated by boring and repetitive missions.
I do take exception to the scene from Bioshock, which was taken entirely out of context and which actually introduces a critical and shocking plot twist to the story.
That notwithstanding, I do think that there are issues in gaming which do need addressing and it does not help if both sides of the argument refuse to engage in a rational and adult debate without resorting to name-calling, threats or unreasonable or unfounded accusations.
The separate issue of games being largely male-centred is almost entirely irrelevant. Gamers are predominantly male, that's a fact, and if developers want to write games from a male perspective then that's entirely understandable. If devs want to make female-centred or neutral game narratives that's also fine, too, of course. You cater for your audience, so the trope of a game character rescuing a "damsel in distress" is fine (and God knows I've also spent many game hours rescuing male NPC's as well...)