I would have tended to agree with you, but TVL were happy for the TV rental shops to do this in the 60's and 70's.
Point of Pedantry - There was no 'TVL' as in a separate licensing entity in the 60's and 70's. Television licenses were issued and administered by the GPO - General Post Office (who also did the telephones).
What one state enterprise might have allowed to be done on a limited scale 50 years ago has no bearing whatsoever on what a private collection agent operating under a different legislative and regulatory regime might countenance today.
Frankly only the most tight-fisted, demented and Bolshevik 'refusenik' would even think of doing this and the OP's comments about B&W being "more homely" are, IMO, as absurd as they are disingenuous.
If you want B & W - turn the colour down! Arguments about permanently disabling colour recording or colour presentation from todays devices are merely thinly-disguised attempts to circumvent payment obligations to which some people have a vehement objection.
I work in broadcasting, too and it . . . doesn't bother me one bit if people are watching in B&W. Unlike you, I don't feel any entitlement that everything I'm involved in should be seen in colour, because we live in a free country, so those who wish to watch on old black and white sets should, and are, perfectly entitled to do so. So tell me, how on earth does it affect you that less than 1% of the population - a number so small that it would have actually no impact on your career or income whatsoever - choose, or sometimes out of necessity, have to watch in B&W? As a creative person yourself, do you not think that some people may be choosing to watch black and white for artistic reasons, also?
It *is* a trivial matter when you concern yourself with how less than 1% of the population watch television. It isn't important. It doesn't have a detrimental effect on anyone.
However, important matters, like nuclear arms, climate change, the Islamic State, the economy etc, these are matters that aren't, and shouldn't be, considered trivial. How about 13,000 people, out of a country with a population of about 67 million, choose to watch TV, is.
So because I take my job seriously it means I don't care about anything else in the world? Don't be an idiot. Read this, it describes you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
And no, it's not artistic to be watching a programme in black and white, when it WAS MADE IN COLOUR. We spend a lot of money making these programmes look a certain way, so don't insult our profession and watch it incorrectly because you're too cheap to pay for a colour licence.
So because I take my job seriously it means I don't care about anything else in the world? Don't be an idiot. Read this, it describes you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
And no, it's not artistic to be watching a programme in black and white, when it WAS MADE IN COLOUR. We spend a lot of money making these programmes look a certain way, so don't insult our profession and watch it incorrectly because you're too cheap to pay for a colour licence.
I don't insult our profession - what I'm saying is it's the choice of the consumer to watch TV however they want to watch it.
You might as well berate those who watch on iPlayer for doing so because of the efforts of those who work in playout or the actual transmitters. It's a ridiculous line of argument that I don't think many in the industry would support or even care about.
I don't insult our profession - what I'm saying is it's the choice of the consumer to watch TV however they want to watch it.
You might as well berate those who watch on iPlayer for doing so because of the efforts of those who work in playout or the actual transmitters. It's a ridiculous line of argument that I don't think many in the industry would support or even care about.
No completely different. Watching on iPlayer you're still seeing it the way the director wanted you to, but to watch something in black and white instead of colour just does a disservice to the creative team. The programme wasn't lit that way or produced for that format, so why watch it that way?
A lot of people do care about it, it's the same principle as why some directors won't allow their films to be shown in anything but widescreen, because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE MADE.
No completely different. Watching on iPlayer you're still seeing it the way the director wanted you to, but to watch something in black and white instead of colour just does a disservice to the creative team. The programme wasn't lit that way or produced for that format, so why watch it that way?
A lot of people do care about it, it's the same principle as why some directors won't allow their films to be shown in anything but widescreen, because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE MADE.
But, at home, the person can view it how they like.
OK for cinemas, because they are commercial partners of the distributors/production companies as they will have contractual obligations and commercial interests not to upset the producers, but a TV set is an item that is the personal property of a viewer, it is not your item, so it is not up to anyone else but that viewer to choose how they watch programmes. That's why options to use TVs even dating back to the 1930s exist!
Why does it bother you how someone watches a programme on *their own personal* TV set? It's not your set and you,; like I, make programmes for the viewers, not for yourselves. You can bang out about creativity and how the producers intended it to be seen until the cows come home, at the bottom line it is not your decision how the viewer chooses to view it on their legally bought and paid for TV set.
But, at home, the person can view it how they like.
OK for cinemas, because they are commercial partners of the distributors/production companies as they will have contractual obligations and commercial interests not to upset the producers, but a TV set is an item that is the personal property of a viewer, it is not your item, so it is not up to anyone else but that viewer to choose how they watch programmes. That's why options to use TVs even dating back to the 1930s exist!
Why does it bother you how someone watches a programme on *their own personal* TV set? It's not your set and you,; like I, make programmes for the viewers, not for yourselves. You can bang out about creativity and how the producers intended it to be seen until the cows come home, at the bottom line it is not your decision how the viewer chooses to view it on their legally bought and paid for TV set.
It's 2014, we should not be allowing people to watch stuff in black and white. If they do want to do that, then they should pay the colour fee and turn down the colour on their set. Why should they pay less because they're stuck in the past and being cheap?
for perfect grey scale put quad op amp on veroboard. 3 buffers and a virtual earth adder. pay attention to power rail decoupling to avoid picture hum. details in the Practical Wireless convert your colour tv into monochrome construction project early 80s i think .......
But, at home, the person can view it how they like.
OK for cinemas, because they are commercial partners of the distributors/production companies as they will have contractual obligations and commercial interests not to upset the producers, but a TV set is an item that is the personal property of a viewer, it is not your item, so it is not up to anyone else but that viewer to choose how they watch programmes. That's why options to use TVs even dating back to the 1930s exist!
Why does it bother you how someone watches a programme on *their own personal* TV set? It's not your set and you,; like I, make programmes for the viewers, not for yourselves. You can bang out about creativity and how the producers intended it to be seen until the cows come home, at the bottom line it is not your decision how the viewer chooses to view it on their legally bought and paid for TV set.
yup. just cos a "tonmeister" studio sound technican slowly goes deaf from constant ridiculousy high sound levels, this doesnt means the listener at home must go deaf too, in order to "hear the same thing" ......
If I don't want Sky Movies, I don't have to subscribe to it. The same should go for colour. Each station should broadcast in B&W and colour. ie;
BBC 1 Monochrome
BBC 1 colour
and if we want the colour we simply pay the increased license fee and we get the colour channels. In this digital age it makes sense.
That sounds crazy, yes it is done with HD and SD but the BBC even want to stop doing that as its costing too much or it will with all the HD regional variations.
Anyway if the BBC and other broadcasters did what you suggested, the monochrome cost would shoot up to pay for a unique network thats just for B&W licence holders!
Things move on and broadcasters like to just send out their channels at the best level they can eg HD, widescreen and colour and let the viewer sort out how they will watch it eg HD or SD, Widescreen/letterboxed/centre cutout, B&W/Colour!
Someone could potentially take a HD signal downscale it to SD, letterbox it or centre cutout the picture to 4:3 then use a 625-405 line converter then watch on a B&W 405 line TV. This is the idea of modern tech, that it can be done like this if its wanted!
If I don't want Sky Movies, I don't have to subscribe to it. The same should go for colour. Each station should broadcast in B&W and colour. ie;
BBC 1 Monochrome
BBC 1 colour
and if we want the colour we simply pay the increased license fee and we get the colour channels. In this digital age it makes sense.
Yes, let's cater for the few insane people in this world by doing a channel just in black and white when we can't even get regional HD variants. Don't be idiotic. All this to save 8 quid a month! Should be ashamed of yourself. Fine if you want black and white, sort it yourself with your TV's settings, but you shouldn't be getting special treatment.
It's 2014, we should not be allowing people to watch stuff in black and white. If they do want to do that, then they should pay the colour fee and turn down the colour on their set. Why should they pay less because they're stuck in the past and being cheap?
Because they're not receiving the full service.
And yes, we should be allowing people to watch stuff in black and white, we are a liberated society after all. What you are proposing is the slippery slope towards a dictatorship. For goodness' sake allow the people to do as they please!
So in your world, I wouldn't be allowed to watch television on some of my vintage 1940s-1970s TV sets, which have been carefully restored to working order, many of which are black and white sets (and yes, I do pay the colour licence simply because I have some colour sets)?
I wonder what other harmless activities there are that you're not going to allow people to do?
If I don't want Sky Movies, I don't have to subscribe to it. The same should go for colour. Each station should broadcast in B&W and colour. ie;
BBC 1 Monochrome
BBC 1 colour
and if we want the colour we simply pay the increased license fee and we get the colour channels. In this digital age it makes sense.
Erm, you do know that colour TV is a black and white signal with colour information added? What would be the point when the stations are technically broadcasting in black and white with an extra colour signal - even for digital TV?
Yes, let's cater for the few insane people in this world by doing a channel just in black and white when we can't even get regional HD variants. Don't be idiotic. All this to save 8 quid a month! Should be ashamed of yourself. Fine if you want black and white, sort it yourself with your TV's settings, but you shouldn't be getting special treatment.
Erm, paedophiles, rapists and murderers are insane, people who use black and white TV sets are merely eccentric, disabled to the point where it would be pointless to own a colour TV, or just tight.
Either way, there you go again, insulting people who are using their right not to do as you do, labeling them "insane".
Seeing as you're the one wanting to restrict people's freedom to watch on genuine black and white sets. I think you're the only one in this thread to whom that word applies.
ok im getting mixed up twixt tube drive and line/frame output valves. partly cos there is no such thing as "chroma drive". whichever way u do it requires at least 3 different signals extracted from the composite pal ......
Erm, paedophiles, rapists and murderers are insane, people who use black and white TV sets are merely eccentric, disabled to the point where it would be pointless to own a colour TV, or just tight.
Either way, there you go again, insulting people who are using their right not to do as you do, labeling them "insane".
Seeing as you're the one wanting to restrict people's freedom to watch on genuine black and white sets. I think you're the only one in this thread to whom that word applies.
I didn't say they couldn't do it, just that we shouldn't be catering to a niche market. If they want to watch in black and white, fine, but pay the same as everyone else - why should they get special treatment?! If I want to watch my programmes entirely in the hue of pink, can I get a special discount?
Just going back to the original message - did this really happen in TV rental shops? Why supply an expensive colour receiver, only to de-saturate it to monochrome? Of course the customer would then pay a lower rental too.
I remember the first colour set we rented. The repairman soon became a familiar face in the house, dealing with the part valve, part transistor receiver. I hope (despite warnings) nobody on this forum messes around with picture tubes. 25,000 volts should be taken very seriously.
And no, it's not artistic to be watching a programme in black and white, when it WAS MADE IN COLOUR. We spend a lot of money making these programmes look a certain way, so don't insult our profession and watch it incorrectly because you're too cheap to pay for a colour licence.
ive been a way for a few days, and reading this thread is leaving me aghast,
However just to pick up on this point, its certainly true that the use of color can be an artistic choice, one example of this being the Sin City movie.
Also any episode of Cold Case, whilst in flashback mode used color & sometimes B&W mode to set the tone of whatever decade the crime was committed in.
Finally (and less seriously) without colored shirts, how else will I know who will die next in Star Trek?
ok im getting mixed up twixt tube drive and line/frame output valves. partly cos there is no such thing as "chroma drive". whichever way u do it requires at least 3 different signals extracted from the composite pal ......
Oh yes there was - colour difference drive. You apply the colour difference signals of PAL decoder to two grids on the tube and a -Y luminance signal to the cathode. This results in the mathematical addition of the luminance signal with both of the colour signals respectively. It's the equivalent of applying +Y to one of the grids - RGB matrixing.
It's obvious that this would result in timing problems due to the bandwidths of the three signals, but also in the relative sensitivies of the three electrodes.
Comments
Point of Pedantry - There was no 'TVL' as in a separate licensing entity in the 60's and 70's. Television licenses were issued and administered by the GPO - General Post Office (who also did the telephones).
What one state enterprise might have allowed to be done on a limited scale 50 years ago has no bearing whatsoever on what a private collection agent operating under a different legislative and regulatory regime might countenance today.
Frankly only the most tight-fisted, demented and Bolshevik 'refusenik' would even think of doing this and the OP's comments about B&W being "more homely" are, IMO, as absurd as they are disingenuous.
If you want B & W - turn the colour down! Arguments about permanently disabling colour recording or colour presentation from todays devices are merely thinly-disguised attempts to circumvent payment obligations to which some people have a vehement objection.
So because I take my job seriously it means I don't care about anything else in the world? Don't be an idiot. Read this, it describes you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
And no, it's not artistic to be watching a programme in black and white, when it WAS MADE IN COLOUR. We spend a lot of money making these programmes look a certain way, so don't insult our profession and watch it incorrectly because you're too cheap to pay for a colour licence.
I don't insult our profession - what I'm saying is it's the choice of the consumer to watch TV however they want to watch it.
You might as well berate those who watch on iPlayer for doing so because of the efforts of those who work in playout or the actual transmitters. It's a ridiculous line of argument that I don't think many in the industry would support or even care about.
No completely different. Watching on iPlayer you're still seeing it the way the director wanted you to, but to watch something in black and white instead of colour just does a disservice to the creative team. The programme wasn't lit that way or produced for that format, so why watch it that way?
A lot of people do care about it, it's the same principle as why some directors won't allow their films to be shown in anything but widescreen, because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE MADE.
But, at home, the person can view it how they like.
OK for cinemas, because they are commercial partners of the distributors/production companies as they will have contractual obligations and commercial interests not to upset the producers, but a TV set is an item that is the personal property of a viewer, it is not your item, so it is not up to anyone else but that viewer to choose how they watch programmes. That's why options to use TVs even dating back to the 1930s exist!
Why does it bother you how someone watches a programme on *their own personal* TV set? It's not your set and you,; like I, make programmes for the viewers, not for yourselves. You can bang out about creativity and how the producers intended it to be seen until the cows come home, at the bottom line it is not your decision how the viewer chooses to view it on their legally bought and paid for TV set.
It's 2014, we should not be allowing people to watch stuff in black and white. If they do want to do that, then they should pay the colour fee and turn down the colour on their set. Why should they pay less because they're stuck in the past and being cheap?
dont want folks killing themselves, then ending up with a bad colour picture, still paying colour license, and blaming me for it ......
yes they did. since a tube has to work on either cathode or grid drive. or possibly both together as u point out
trouble with pl802 is you couldnt use them in a home built x ray machine unlike the usa equivalent .... bad news for amateur radiographers .....
yup. just cos a "tonmeister" studio sound technican slowly goes deaf from constant ridiculousy high sound levels, this doesnt means the listener at home must go deaf too, in order to "hear the same thing" ......
BBC 1 Monochrome
BBC 1 colour
and if we want the colour we simply pay the increased license fee and we get the colour channels. In this digital age it makes sense.
That sounds crazy, yes it is done with HD and SD but the BBC even want to stop doing that as its costing too much or it will with all the HD regional variations.
Anyway if the BBC and other broadcasters did what you suggested, the monochrome cost would shoot up to pay for a unique network thats just for B&W licence holders!
Things move on and broadcasters like to just send out their channels at the best level they can eg HD, widescreen and colour and let the viewer sort out how they will watch it eg HD or SD, Widescreen/letterboxed/centre cutout, B&W/Colour!
Someone could potentially take a HD signal downscale it to SD, letterbox it or centre cutout the picture to 4:3 then use a 625-405 line converter then watch on a B&W 405 line TV. This is the idea of modern tech, that it can be done like this if its wanted!
Yes, let's cater for the few insane people in this world by doing a channel just in black and white when we can't even get regional HD variants. Don't be idiotic. All this to save 8 quid a month! Should be ashamed of yourself. Fine if you want black and white, sort it yourself with your TV's settings, but you shouldn't be getting special treatment.
Because they're not receiving the full service.
And yes, we should be allowing people to watch stuff in black and white, we are a liberated society after all. What you are proposing is the slippery slope towards a dictatorship. For goodness' sake allow the people to do as they please!
So in your world, I wouldn't be allowed to watch television on some of my vintage 1940s-1970s TV sets, which have been carefully restored to working order, many of which are black and white sets (and yes, I do pay the colour licence simply because I have some colour sets)?
I wonder what other harmless activities there are that you're not going to allow people to do?
Erm, you do know that colour TV is a black and white signal with colour information added? What would be the point when the stations are technically broadcasting in black and white with an extra colour signal - even for digital TV?
Erm, paedophiles, rapists and murderers are insane, people who use black and white TV sets are merely eccentric, disabled to the point where it would be pointless to own a colour TV, or just tight.
Either way, there you go again, insulting people who are using their right not to do as you do, labeling them "insane".
Seeing as you're the one wanting to restrict people's freedom to watch on genuine black and white sets. I think you're the only one in this thread to whom that word applies.
I didn't say they couldn't do it, just that we shouldn't be catering to a niche market. If they want to watch in black and white, fine, but pay the same as everyone else - why should they get special treatment?! If I want to watch my programmes entirely in the hue of pink, can I get a special discount?
I remember the first colour set we rented. The repairman soon became a familiar face in the house, dealing with the part valve, part transistor receiver. I hope (despite warnings) nobody on this forum messes around with picture tubes. 25,000 volts should be taken very seriously.
And for those of us with sight, the best movies were shot in monochrome! Stop being selfish!:cool:
However just to pick up on this point, its certainly true that the use of color can be an artistic choice, one example of this being the Sin City movie.
Also any episode of Cold Case, whilst in flashback mode used color & sometimes B&W mode to set the tone of whatever decade the crime was committed in.
Finally (and less seriously) without colored shirts, how else will I know who will die next in Star Trek?
Blind people get a reduced fee anyway IIRC
Oh yes there was - colour difference drive. You apply the colour difference signals of PAL decoder to two grids on the tube and a -Y luminance signal to the cathode. This results in the mathematical addition of the luminance signal with both of the colour signals respectively. It's the equivalent of applying +Y to one of the grids - RGB matrixing.
It's obvious that this would result in timing problems due to the bandwidths of the three signals, but also in the relative sensitivies of the three electrodes.