it seems" pcm "might be widely used as incorrect jargon, but this is not my fault .... the use of pcm .... Requiring just simple a/d and d/a conversion, has been largely replaced by audio codecs using the discrete cosine transform.....
This brings us back to "Samsung says it can do it", and what I said about Samsung not really understanding their own product. e.g. The spec sheet says the TV has DD but doesn't make the distinction between DD for DVB-T2/USB/Apps and DD for external sources via HDMI which is essentially DD pass-thru.
You may well be right, it's impossible to get through to somebody that (IMHO) is actually understanding the issue.
Long and short of it is this, they are sending an engineer out to 'fix' it, no idea what this will lead to, but will post up the outcome.
Unless Samsung are going to change the firmware and add any required hardware then long story short you're still at the same place: Buy an AV Receiver + speaker kit and connect sources to that.
I hear what you're saying, and I think I agree, it's a firmware job at the least...
I find it impossible to believe Samsung have not been round this loop already?
As for buying an AV receiver, I have one thanks (Onkyo), and it works just fine, except it does not support 4K, hence why I want to use it on HDMI ARC with the source been sent direct to the TV's other HDMI ports.
it seems" pcm "might be widely used as incorrect jargon, but this is not my fault .... the use of pcm .... Requiring just simple a/d and d/a conversion, has been largely replaced by audio codecs using the discrete cosine transform.....
haas effect is used in surround cinema decoders. But not home ones. Which rely mainly on amplitude steering for 2.0 and surround stereo for 5.1
I'm not sure why you are repeating this inaccurate drivel, see post 37.
There was a long running thread about surround sound recently on which you even claimed information on the Dolby site was wrong. The Dolby professional surround decoders in audio dubbing suites, which are similar in size to domestic living rooms, have variable rear channel delay, if they didn't the rear channels would dominate and the final mix would be incorrect. This was a major problem in the quadraphonic era, there were other problems as well, as affordable delay lines were not available and as a result you had to sit in the middle of your living room.
I'm not sure why you are repeating this inaccurate drivel, see post 37.
There was a long running thread about surround sound recently on which you even claimed information on the Dolby site was wrong. The Dolby professional surround decoders in audio dubbing suites, which are similar in size to domestic living rooms, have variable rear channel delay, if they didn't the rear channels would dominate and the final mix would be incorrect. This was a major problem in the quadraphonic era, there were other problems as well, as affordable delay lines were not available and as a result you had to sit in the middle of your living room.
i think you are referring to deliberately misleading jargon on the dolby website, claiming somthing called "mono surround". No such thing exists. The rear channel is phase encoded. If u like, it is "squished quadrophonic". The.squishing originally being to counteract projector sound head film weave .....
i think you are referring to deliberately misleading jargon on the dolby website, claiming somthing called "mono surround". No such thing exists. The rear channel is phase encoded. If u like, it is "squished quadrophonic". The.squishing originally being to counteract projector sound head film weave .....
I'm afraid I can not see any connection between this post and mine.
that is your problem. Not mine. I have previously explained how the different systems work. In great detail.
You have explained how you think they work, sadly most of us do not agree. I still remember your insistence that Dolby Digital wasn't an entirely discrete system with no cross talk between the 6 channels in 5.1 (complete rubbish and easily proven to be wrong). I even created a 5.1 mix with totally unrelated audio on each channel. Even then you didn't believe it
Now we have the situation where every AV receiver I have ever had (some cost about £1500), correctly identify the audio they are getting as PCM from channels transmititng audio using MP2 . If it's not PCM what the heck is it ?
Blu-ray players have the option to output multichannel audio from a DTS Master HD track as bitstream (passthrough) or multichannel PCM using a hdmi interconnect. Both formats are lossless. My older Denon Amp lacked a DTS-HD decoder but was capable of using a DTS Master-HD track when converted to multichannel PCM. Up to 8 entirely discrete audio tracks are possible (genuine 7.1)
i think you are referring to deliberately misleading jargon on the dolby website, claiming somthing called "mono surround". No such thing exists. The rear channel is phase encoded. If u like, it is "squished quadrophonic". The.squishing originally being to counteract projector sound head film weave .....
As explained to you numerous times.......
The reference to mono surround is referring to a single rear output, a single rear speaker or two rear speakers that carry the same signal. If you look at the Dolby Mono Surround diagram you will see three dots in a square, they represent speakers front left and right and a single rear.
haas effect is used in surround cinema decoders. But not home ones. Which rely mainly on amplitude steering for 2.0 and surround stereo for 5.1
How I described HAAS working is factually correct. Check it out.
Why you brought up HAAS in a conversation about DD and domestic gear when it is irrelevant is quite baffling. Is it your hobby horse, I wonder? You seem to be a bit obsessed. But I was merely addressing your incorrect assertion that Haas wouldn't work in small rooms. It will.
The reference to mono surround is referring to a single rear output, a single rear speaker or two rear speakers that carry the same signal. If you look at the Dolby Mono Surround diagram you will see three dots in a square, they represent speakers front left and right and a single rear.
cinema decoder simply uses the phase coding on rear channel directly. Whereas the different home use,pro logic decoder uses amplitude steering instead BECAUSE haas effect doesnt work in much smaller space. Both versions give matrixed surround sound, albeit via different methods.
You have explained how you think they work, sadly most of us do not agree. I still remember your insistence that Dolby Digital wasn't an entirely discrete system with no cross talk between the 6 channels in 5.1 (complete rubbish and easily proven to be wrong). I even created a 5.1 mix with totally unrelated audio on each channel. Even then you didn't believe it
Now we have the situation where every AV receiver I have ever had (some cost about £1500), correctly identify the audio they are getting as PCM from channels transmititng audio using MP2 . If it's not PCM what the heck is it ?
Blu-ray players have the option to output multichannel audio from a DTS Master HD track as bitstream (passthrough) or multichannel PCM using a hdmi interconnect. Both formats are lossless. My older Denon Amp lacked a DTS-HD decoder but was capable of using a DTS Master-HD track when converted to multichannel PCM. Up to 8 entirely discrete audio tracks are possible (genuine 7.1)
i never said any such thing. I said that the decoder is the most important part, rather rhan discrete channels vs matrixed delivery. Its how the decoder uses various psycho acoustic tricks which determines how good the experience is ......
You have explained how you think they work, sadly most of us do not agree. I still remember your insistence that Dolby Digital wasn't an entirely discrete system with no cross talk between the 6 channels in 5.1 (complete rubbish and easily proven to be wrong). I even created a 5.1 mix with totally unrelated audio on each channel. Even then you didn't believe it
Now we have the situation where every AV receiver I have ever had (some cost about £1500), correctly identify the audio they are getting as PCM from channels transmititng audio using MP2 . If it's not PCM what the heck is it ?
Blu-ray players have the option to output multichannel audio from a DTS Master HD track as bitstream (passthrough) or multichannel PCM using a hdmi interconnect. Both formats are lossless. My older Denon Amp lacked a DTS-HD decoder but was capable of using a DTS Master-HD track when converted to multichannel PCM. Up to 8 entirely discrete audio tracks are possible (genuine 7.1)
pcm is not used for any consumer format except cd. It couldnt be since the bitrate is far too high.this why lossy codecs using fourier transform are used instead.
DD what?........ 5.1, 5.0, 4.0, something else?? It's not enough to just say DD when making comparisons to something else....
... and what do you mean by "lower fi 2.0 version"... Lower-Fi than what?
2.0 is the matrixed surrouund sound. Which is always transmitted regardless of whether dolby digital (5.1) is there or not. Almost certainly your tv does not have the chips to decode the dd. But it can do 2.0.
pcm is the simplest way to do digital audio. So was the 1st system used. But - think carefully - a singld cd with less than 1 hour of stereo uses 700 mb. So how do folks think 5.1 fits onto even a double layer commercial dvd?
You have explained how you think they work, sadly most of us do not agree. I still remember your insistence that Dolby Digital wasn't an entirely discrete system with no cross talk between the 6 channels in 5.1 (complete rubbish and easily proven to be wrong). I even created a 5.1 mix with totally unrelated audio on each channel. Even then you didn't believe it
Now we have the situation where every AV receiver I have ever had (some cost about £1500), correctly identify the audio they are getting as PCM from channels transmititng audio using MP2 . If it's not PCM what the heck is it ?
Blu-ray players have the option to output multichannel audio from a DTS Master HD track as bitstream (passthrough) or multichannel PCM using a hdmi interconnect. Both formats are lossless. My older Denon Amp lacked a DTS-HD decoder but was capable of using a DTS Master-HD track when converted to multichannel PCM. Up to 8 entirely discrete audio tracks are possible (genuine 7.1)
in fact, i said that sound desk mixing is de facto matrixing. Which always happens. Regardless of whether desk output goes to 5.1 or 2.0 or both.......
You have explained how you think they work, sadly most of us do not agree. I still remember your insistence that Dolby Digital wasn't an entirely discrete system with no cross talk between the 6 channels in 5.1 (complete rubbish and easily proven to be wrong). I even created a 5.1 mix with totally unrelated audio on each channel. Even then you didn't believe it
Now we have the situation where every AV receiver I have ever had (some cost about £1500), correctly identify the audio they are getting as PCM from channels transmititng audio using MP2 . If it's not PCM what the heck is it ?
Blu-ray players have the option to output multichannel audio from a DTS Master HD track as bitstream (passthrough) or multichannel PCM using a hdmi interconnect. Both formats are lossless. My older Denon Amp lacked a DTS-HD decoder but was capable of using a DTS Master-HD track when converted to multichannel PCM. Up to 8 entirely discrete audio tracks are possible (genuine 7.1)
these codecs all work via a fourier transform. After which, many coefficient values are effectively zero. And are,discarded. Which may be "in effect lossless" although the actual birate is far lower than pcm would be if it were used. Which it isn't for any of these formats
the dts codec is supposed to be,"perceptually transparent". Better than ac3. But it is not lossless. It uses the same fourier transform as other codecs.
Comments
back to the subject...
You may well be right, it's impossible to get through to somebody that (IMHO) is actually understanding the issue.
Long and short of it is this, they are sending an engineer out to 'fix' it, no idea what this will lead to, but will post up the outcome.
I hear what you're saying, and I think I agree, it's a firmware job at the least...
I find it impossible to believe Samsung have not been round this loop already?
As for buying an AV receiver, I have one thanks (Onkyo), and it works just fine, except it does not support 4K, hence why I want to use it on HDMI ARC with the source been sent direct to the TV's other HDMI ports.
my turn to pick you up.
A Codec does not replace an A/D.
obviously not. Any type of digital sound will require analog conversion, at some point, in order to be heard......
I'm not sure why you are repeating this inaccurate drivel, see post 37.
There was a long running thread about surround sound recently on which you even claimed information on the Dolby site was wrong. The Dolby professional surround decoders in audio dubbing suites, which are similar in size to domestic living rooms, have variable rear channel delay, if they didn't the rear channels would dominate and the final mix would be incorrect. This was a major problem in the quadraphonic era, there were other problems as well, as affordable delay lines were not available and as a result you had to sit in the middle of your living room.
i think you are referring to deliberately misleading jargon on the dolby website, claiming somthing called "mono surround". No such thing exists. The rear channel is phase encoded. If u like, it is "squished quadrophonic". The.squishing originally being to counteract projector sound head film weave .....
I'm afraid I can not see any connection between this post and mine.
that is your problem. Not mine. I have previously explained how the different systems work. In great detail.
DD what?........ 5.1, 5.0, 4.0, something else?? It's not enough to just say DD when making comparisons to something else....
... and what do you mean by "lower fi 2.0 version"... Lower-Fi than what?
You have explained how you think they work, sadly most of us do not agree. I still remember your insistence that Dolby Digital wasn't an entirely discrete system with no cross talk between the 6 channels in 5.1 (complete rubbish and easily proven to be wrong). I even created a 5.1 mix with totally unrelated audio on each channel. Even then you didn't believe it
Now we have the situation where every AV receiver I have ever had (some cost about £1500), correctly identify the audio they are getting as PCM from channels transmititng audio using MP2 . If it's not PCM what the heck is it ?
Blu-ray players have the option to output multichannel audio from a DTS Master HD track as bitstream (passthrough) or multichannel PCM using a hdmi interconnect. Both formats are lossless. My older Denon Amp lacked a DTS-HD decoder but was capable of using a DTS Master-HD track when converted to multichannel PCM. Up to 8 entirely discrete audio tracks are possible (genuine 7.1)
As usual you are living in the past.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2622
As explained to you numerous times.......
The reference to mono surround is referring to a single rear output, a single rear speaker or two rear speakers that carry the same signal. If you look at the Dolby Mono Surround diagram you will see three dots in a square, they represent speakers front left and right and a single rear.
Why you brought up HAAS in a conversation about DD and domestic gear when it is irrelevant is quite baffling. Is it your hobby horse, I wonder? You seem to be a bit obsessed. But I was merely addressing your incorrect assertion that Haas wouldn't work in small rooms. It will.
cinema decoder simply uses the phase coding on rear channel directly. Whereas the different home use,pro logic decoder uses amplitude steering instead BECAUSE haas effect doesnt work in much smaller space. Both versions give matrixed surround sound, albeit via different methods.
i never said any such thing. I said that the decoder is the most important part, rather rhan discrete channels vs matrixed delivery. Its how the decoder uses various psycho acoustic tricks which determines how good the experience is ......
2.0 is the matrixed surrouund sound. Which is always transmitted regardless of whether dolby digital (5.1) is there or not. Almost certainly your tv does not have the chips to decode the dd. But it can do 2.0.
in fact, i said that sound desk mixing is de facto matrixing. Which always happens. Regardless of whether desk output goes to 5.1 or 2.0 or both.......
these codecs all work via a fourier transform. After which, many coefficient values are effectively zero. And are,discarded. Which may be "in effect lossless" although the actual birate is far lower than pcm would be if it were used. Which it isn't for any of these formats