The North Koreans live in a bubble where their leaders seem to have divine status. Obvious nonsense, but with no one telling you any different you can see how the myth is propagated.
I think the Greek people have been sold and are being sold the idea that life outside the Euro is simply unimaginable. A majority say they want to stay in at "any cost" - really? Any cost at all? It's like an almost religious conviction they have. I don't think they have any exposure to the counter argument that life outside the Euro / EU is perfectly plausible, hence this blinkered attitude. All they hear is Junker telling them to stop being ungrateful and accept an eternity of hardship in the name the federalist dream of a small cabal of fanatics.
If the Greek people can just stop lapping up the one-sided propaganda they're clearly being dealt every which way but loose and start to take a broader look at the options, they might finally be able to look a non-Euro / EU future in the face.
New Democracy say their a right of centre party, as do our Conservatives. Is Cameron a socialist? As for apportioning blame, a number of posters in this thread speak of Syriza, well, snipe at them, as if they caused the Greek crisis. They only took office in January, but to the fanatics their to blame for everything.
The 'centre' in each country is very different. Left wing in US is to the right of the right wing in Greece. Greece is a left of centre country so their centre is to the left!
I think the Greek people have been sold and are being sold the idea that life outside the Euro is simply unimaginable. A majority say they want to stay in at "any cost" - really? Any cost at all? It's like an almost religious conviction they have. I don't think they have any exposure to the counter argument that life outside the Euro / EU is perfectly plausible, hence this blinkered attitude. All they hear is Junker telling them to stop being ungrateful and accept an eternity of hardship in the name the federalist dream of a small cabal of fanatics.
Life outside the Euro is imaginable because they have been their before. It was rubbish they have defaulted more times than any other European country they are 4th in world. Which is saying something when you have Africa and South american countries in that list.
The Greek economic situation was actually worst before they jointed the Euro. They have a poor economic situation. If they default where are they going to get the money to pay the wages let alone invest in expensive projects to try a kick start the economic situation.
You can have this anti Europe, sticking two fingers up to the Germans. However that does not pay the bills. It does not pay for the massive amounts of power they import from Italy, it does not change the fact their exports are limited to low costs goods.
I wonder if they people of Greece would be quite so willing to vote no if it contained the statement 'No which will lead to a total collapse in the Greek banking system and wiping out all your savings'
The North Koreans live in a bubble where their leaders seem to have divine status. Obvious nonsense, but with no one telling you any different you can see how the myth is propagated.
I think the Greek people have been sold and are being sold the idea that life outside the Euro is simply unimaginable. A majority say they want to stay in at "any cost" - really? Any cost at all? It's like an almost religious conviction they have. I don't think they have any exposure to the counter argument that life outside the Euro / EU is perfectly plausible, hence this blinkered attitude. All they hear is Junker telling them to stop being ungrateful and accept an eternity of hardship in the name the federalist dream of a small cabal of fanatics.
If the Greek people can just stop lapping up the one-sided propaganda they're clearly being dealt every which way but loose and start to take a broader look at the options, they might finally be able to look a non-Euro / EU future in the face.
To be honest I think the may be willing to fall out the Eurozone currency, but there is an underlying threat that is being put about by the European press that they have to come out of the European Union in it's entirety. Don't see why that has to happen, however I think that what worries the greek population more.
The 'centre' in each country is very different. Left wing in US is to the right of the right wing in Greece. Greece is a left of centre country so their centre is to the left!
Of course, there are degrees of right or left, but not sure I consider Greece in the last 20 years a totally socialist country,if you want to put a label on it, in fact one of the biggest problem they have had is the people in power and the people who have been in the "know" have taken advantage and just got richer, and that money has long left the country, is that socialism?
Bankers made a profit. For years they lent Greece money knowing it was a disaster waiting to happen. They kept lending because while Greece was repaying each year the banks profits were boosted and they got a big bonus, and when it went pear shaped, no problem, they'd made their fortune, the peasants would be left to fight over who pays the bill. How the bankers must laugh at the partisan twits, many on this forum, who say it's all the fault of socialists, or capitalism. It's neither, it's simple theft by bankers, who make up the biggest criminal gangs in the world.
Ridiculous.
The heart of the issue is that Greece has very low productivity, a welfare state that is unaffordable, taxes that dont get collected and an economy that isnt in the 21st century. The fault for those are squarely on Greek politicians.
Blaming the banks is lazy. Even if there has been fault by the bankers, they arent the underlying problem. The underlying problem is Greece is an economic basketcase
The heart of the issue is that Greece has very low productivity, a welfare state that is unaffordable, taxes that dont get collected and an economy that isnt in the 21st century. The fault for those are squarely on Greek politicians.
Blaming the banks is lazy. Even if there has been fault by the bankers, they arent the underlying problem. The underlying problem is Greece is an economic basketcase
Agree. The whole economy is based around the fakelaki. Where you are expected to pay bribes to buy goods and services. All tax free of course. The Greek economy and the euro are totally incompatible. This was known at the time. But the desire for "an ever closer europe" meant that sane and rational judgement went out the window and Greece was allowed to join. The consequences of that act of political blindness are apparent today.
The heart of the issue is that Greece has very low productivity, a welfare state that is unaffordable, taxes that dont get collected and an economy that isnt in the 21st century. The fault for those are squarely on Greek politicians.
Blaming the banks is lazy. Even if there has been fault by the bankers, they arent the underlying problem. The underlying problem is Greece is an economic basketcase
In which case it beggars the question as to why Greece was ever allowed into the EU or the eurozone? How did they ever manage to achieve their ERM status necessary to join the euro? Could it be that they were the last remaining piece of land in Southern Europe, a piece of land of strategic military importance?
After their entry, did they fail economically and if they did, why were EU/eurozone countries pumping money into them by buying their bonds and why was it that German and French banks were the ones carrying out the bond buying in full view of the rest of the eurozone? Was it to save the eurozone and, thereby, the EU and to save the face of leaders of the two largest EU economies and those of the rest of the EU leaders?
In an extensive interview lastnight on Greek state TV, Tsipras cited the Lisbon treaty in Ireland. Explained how concessions were made after an initial no vote.
He does have a point here, that is somewhat true. I'm just not so sure europe has much patience left with Syriza, or Tsipras has any cards to play of real value. He seems to think he does though.
In an extensive interview lastnight on Greek state TV, Tsipras cited the Lisbon treaty in ireland. Explained how concessions were made after an initial no vote.
He does have a point here, that is somewhat true. I'm just not so sure europe has much patience left with Syriza, or Tsipras has any cards to play of real value. He seems to think he does though.
The difference is the EU needed Ireland to vote Yes otherwise the Lisbon Treaty would not have come into force, which would of course have been a much better outcome.
In an extensive interview lastnight on Greek state TV, Tsipras cited the Lisbon treaty in ireland. Explained how concessions were made after an initial no vote.
He does have a point here, that is somewhat true. I'm just not so sure europe has much patience left with Syriza, or Tsipras has any cards to play of real value. He seems to think he does though.
He's already threatening legal action to make the other countires keep Greece in the euro. While that sounds tough, Greece would be going through some severe economic problems while that raged on. To be honest the whole thing seems a complete mess, but the Greek government are just acting like everything will be fine if the public just vote no. That would only be the start of their problems, things could get nasty. Syriza came to pwoer riding a wave of populism, they can easily be dragged down by it. The military must all be booking their holidays and trying to avoid looking like they want to take over (which I doubt they do, it would be suicide).
I have always had the impression that that is an opposing agenda with Tsipras.
The intended outcome may be to take Greece away from democracy, yet again.
Way back, right from the start he has portrayed the west as the enemy. So, a No vote has other intentions, first and foremost, dragging the people into obeying his rule.
He is doing much the same as would have the original fraudulent Greek politicians who first conned their way into the Euro.
In an extensive interview lastnight on Greek state TV, Tsipras cited the Lisbon treaty in Ireland. Explained how concessions were made after an initial no vote.
He does have a point here, that is somewhat true. I'm just not so sure europe has much patience left with Syriza, or Tsipras has any cards to play of real value. He seems to think he does though.
At the moment there is no evidence that Tsipras is dishonest not something that could be said about the duplicitous Brian Cowen.
I have always had the impression that that is an opposing agenda with Tsipras.
The intended outcome may be to take Greece away from democracy, yet again.
Way back, right from the start he has portrayed the west as the enemy. So, a No vote has other intentions, first and foremost, dragging the people into obeying his rule.
He is doing much the same as would have the original fraudulent Greek politicians who first conned their way into the Euro.
In the interview last night, I'm sure he said words to the effect that if there were 'enough' NO votes (whatever that means), this would give him a mandate to continue negotiations. He seemed to be saying that even if YES wins in a democratic election, he will effectively disregard it because he has a responsibility to represent those who voted NO.
Anyone see the news last night when they spoke to "Yes" and a "No" Greek voters? Both thought the EU would just give Greece more money.
The no votor said that a no vote would mean they got more money from the EU because the EU would collapse without Greece. When the presenter pointed out the EU would continue but that Greece just wouldn't be in it, she didn't agree.
The yes voter said a yes vote would show the other European counties that the Greeks are committed to the EU; and they would then give Greece more money.
Neither mentioned that Greece should be doing more to cut their spending and both expected other European countries to continue to keep Greece.
Anyone see the news last night when they spoke to "Yes" and a "No" Greek voters? Both thought the EU would just give Greece more money.
The no votor said that a no vote would mean they got more money from the EU because the EU would collapse without Greece. When the presenter pointed out the EU would continue but that Greece just wouldn't be in it, she didn't agree.
The yes voter said a yes vote would show the other European counties that the Greeks are committed to the EU; and they would then give Greece more money.
Neither mentioned that Greece should be doing more to cut their spending and both expected other European countries to continue to keep Greece.
Well the EU only has itself to blame for that viewpoint, it does after all promise new members lots of money, why else would they join.
Anyone see the news last night when they spoke to "Yes" and a "No" Greek voters? Both thought the EU would just give Greece more money.
The no votor said that a no vote would mean they got more money from the EU because the EU would collapse without Greece. When the presenter pointed out the EU would continue but that Greece just wouldn't be in it, she didn't agree.
The yes voter said a yes vote would show the other European counties that the Greeks are committed to the EU; and they would then give Greece more money.
Neither mentioned that Greece should be doing more to cut their spending and both expected other European countries to continue to keep Greece.
The Greeks are in denial .
The vote will probably be a yes to accept the proposals thus saving Tsapiris and his government from having to be responsible for quitting the Euro. The whole thing seems planned to me. Close the banks and limit withdrawals to 60 euro a day . This will concentrate the Greeks minds for the week before the referendum. The Eurorzone will save face and stop Greek from exiting the Euro . Its clear if this happens terms and requirements of the deal will be relaxed down the road ever so quietly.
Eleventh hour stuff from europe?
Talk of a last minute deal. But Tispras would have to campaign and call on his people to vote yes in the referendum to support the deal.
Greek banks and the greek government have almost run out of money. And who will now lend to them ?
Nobody, the situation is like a loan shark, they are borrowing money to pay off the interest on loans, which is why they need to default and leave the Eurozone.
Anyone see the news last night when they spoke to "Yes" and a "No" Greek voters? Both thought the EU would just give Greece more money.
The no votor said that a no vote would mean they got more money from the EU because the EU would collapse without Greece. When the presenter pointed out the EU would continue but that Greece just wouldn't be in it, she didn't agree.
The yes voter said a yes vote would show the other European counties that the Greeks are committed to the EU; and they would then give Greece more money.
Neither mentioned that Greece should be doing more to cut their spending and both expected other European countries to continue to keep Greece.
A lot of people talk that Greece should never have been in the EU & €, but not so many seem to actually realise the depth of what that means. Greek economic culture past and present could not, and probably never will, be compatible with that of the main engine room of Central Europe. It's been like giving a patient with type-A blood a transfusion with type-B and hoping he'll survive.
Greek peoples, whatever their political persuasion, have to realise that the old Greek economic culture is gone and it cannot come back. If they want to be part of the € they have to change or it'll be groundhog day all over again fairly soon. If they come out and go back to the Drachma, again, they'll have to change because it'll be a new currency and no one will deal with them on their old terms.
The vote will probably be a yes to accept the proposals thus saving Tsapiris and his government from having to be responsible for quitting the Euro. The whole thing seems planned to me. Close the banks and limit withdrawals to 60 euro a day . This will concentrate the Greeks minds for the week before the referendum. The Eurorzone will save face and stop Greek from exiting the Euro . Its clear if this happens terms and requirements of the deal will be relaxed down the road ever so quietly.
The proposals disappear today when the bailout runs out. Its one of the laughable things about the Greek government. They called a referendum on something that doesn't exist
Comments
I think the Greek people have been sold and are being sold the idea that life outside the Euro is simply unimaginable. A majority say they want to stay in at "any cost" - really? Any cost at all? It's like an almost religious conviction they have. I don't think they have any exposure to the counter argument that life outside the Euro / EU is perfectly plausible, hence this blinkered attitude. All they hear is Junker telling them to stop being ungrateful and accept an eternity of hardship in the name the federalist dream of a small cabal of fanatics.
If the Greek people can just stop lapping up the one-sided propaganda they're clearly being dealt every which way but loose and start to take a broader look at the options, they might finally be able to look a non-Euro / EU future in the face.
The 'centre' in each country is very different. Left wing in US is to the right of the right wing in Greece. Greece is a left of centre country so their centre is to the left!
Life outside the Euro is imaginable because they have been their before. It was rubbish they have defaulted more times than any other European country they are 4th in world. Which is saying something when you have Africa and South american countries in that list.
The Greek economic situation was actually worst before they jointed the Euro. They have a poor economic situation. If they default where are they going to get the money to pay the wages let alone invest in expensive projects to try a kick start the economic situation.
You can have this anti Europe, sticking two fingers up to the Germans. However that does not pay the bills. It does not pay for the massive amounts of power they import from Italy, it does not change the fact their exports are limited to low costs goods.
I wonder if they people of Greece would be quite so willing to vote no if it contained the statement 'No which will lead to a total collapse in the Greek banking system and wiping out all your savings'
The heart of the issue is that Greece has very low productivity, a welfare state that is unaffordable, taxes that dont get collected and an economy that isnt in the 21st century. The fault for those are squarely on Greek politicians.
Blaming the banks is lazy. Even if there has been fault by the bankers, they arent the underlying problem. The underlying problem is Greece is an economic basketcase
Agree. The whole economy is based around the fakelaki. Where you are expected to pay bribes to buy goods and services. All tax free of course. The Greek economy and the euro are totally incompatible. This was known at the time. But the desire for "an ever closer europe" meant that sane and rational judgement went out the window and Greece was allowed to join. The consequences of that act of political blindness are apparent today.
In which case it beggars the question as to why Greece was ever allowed into the EU or the eurozone? How did they ever manage to achieve their ERM status necessary to join the euro? Could it be that they were the last remaining piece of land in Southern Europe, a piece of land of strategic military importance?
After their entry, did they fail economically and if they did, why were EU/eurozone countries pumping money into them by buying their bonds and why was it that German and French banks were the ones carrying out the bond buying in full view of the rest of the eurozone? Was it to save the eurozone and, thereby, the EU and to save the face of leaders of the two largest EU economies and those of the rest of the EU leaders?
He does have a point here, that is somewhat true. I'm just not so sure europe has much patience left with Syriza, or Tsipras has any cards to play of real value. He seems to think he does though.
The difference is the EU needed Ireland to vote Yes otherwise the Lisbon Treaty would not have come into force, which would of course have been a much better outcome.
He's already threatening legal action to make the other countires keep Greece in the euro. While that sounds tough, Greece would be going through some severe economic problems while that raged on. To be honest the whole thing seems a complete mess, but the Greek government are just acting like everything will be fine if the public just vote no. That would only be the start of their problems, things could get nasty. Syriza came to pwoer riding a wave of populism, they can easily be dragged down by it. The military must all be booking their holidays and trying to avoid looking like they want to take over (which I doubt they do, it would be suicide).
The intended outcome may be to take Greece away from democracy, yet again.
Way back, right from the start he has portrayed the west as the enemy. So, a No vote has other intentions, first and foremost, dragging the people into obeying his rule.
He is doing much the same as would have the original fraudulent Greek politicians who first conned their way into the Euro.
At the moment there is no evidence that Tsipras is dishonest not something that could be said about the duplicitous Brian Cowen.
In the interview last night, I'm sure he said words to the effect that if there were 'enough' NO votes (whatever that means), this would give him a mandate to continue negotiations. He seemed to be saying that even if YES wins in a democratic election, he will effectively disregard it because he has a responsibility to represent those who voted NO.
Someone tell me he didn't say that!
The no votor said that a no vote would mean they got more money from the EU because the EU would collapse without Greece. When the presenter pointed out the EU would continue but that Greece just wouldn't be in it, she didn't agree.
The yes voter said a yes vote would show the other European counties that the Greeks are committed to the EU; and they would then give Greece more money.
Neither mentioned that Greece should be doing more to cut their spending and both expected other European countries to continue to keep Greece.
Well the EU only has itself to blame for that viewpoint, it does after all promise new members lots of money, why else would they join.
The Greeks are in denial .
The vote will probably be a yes to accept the proposals thus saving Tsapiris and his government from having to be responsible for quitting the Euro. The whole thing seems planned to me. Close the banks and limit withdrawals to 60 euro a day . This will concentrate the Greeks minds for the week before the referendum. The Eurorzone will save face and stop Greek from exiting the Euro . Its clear if this happens terms and requirements of the deal will be relaxed down the road ever so quietly.
Talk of a last minute deal. But Tispras would have to campaign and call on his people to vote yes in the referendum to support the deal.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story
Sadly the €1.6b they mention is only what Greece needs to repay one loan installment to the IMF by close of play today.
An act of desperation.
Greek banks and the greek government have almost run out of money. And who will now lend to them ?
Nobody, the situation is like a loan shark, they are borrowing money to pay off the interest on loans, which is why they need to default and leave the Eurozone.
If the Greek government adopts a new currency, they can print their own money.
But who will lend to them ?
A lot of people talk that Greece should never have been in the EU & €, but not so many seem to actually realise the depth of what that means. Greek economic culture past and present could not, and probably never will, be compatible with that of the main engine room of Central Europe. It's been like giving a patient with type-A blood a transfusion with type-B and hoping he'll survive.
Greek peoples, whatever their political persuasion, have to realise that the old Greek economic culture is gone and it cannot come back. If they want to be part of the € they have to change or it'll be groundhog day all over again fairly soon. If they come out and go back to the Drachma, again, they'll have to change because it'll be a new currency and no one will deal with them on their old terms.