If a discrimination case is bought to court, it will probably go the same way as that christian couple who ran a small hotel, and refused to let a gay couple share a double bed. They were found to have discriminated against the gay couples sexuality. :cool:
It is a political issue, not discrimination. Would a gay baker be obliged to fulfil an order for a cake with an anti-gay marriage slogan? Would any baker be compelled to bake a pro-Sinn Fein, al-qaeda, ISIS, UKIP or Vladimir Putin cake? Of course not.
That's why I think the law needs testing - I can see your pov here, but the difference is that sexuality is a protected characteristic and political affiliation isn't. If Sinn Fein had ordered the cake (I have no idea if they support SSM or not), would it be discrimination? I genuinely don't know... and I think it is important to see in a court.
If a discrimination case is bought to court, it will probably go the same way as that christian couple who ran a small hotel, and refused to let a gay couple share a double bed. They were found to have discriminated against the gay couples sexuality. :cool:
That's the point people are making it isn't technically the same. They are refusing to make the cake because of what it says, they aren't refusing to serve the customer because of who they are. If a gay person walked into the shop and ordered a muffin they would serve them.
Not really - someone's skin colour is an unchosen and benign attribute... just like sexuality. If people don't think discriminating against people with one such attribute is right, why do they think it acceptable to discriminate against people with a different attribute that is just as unchosen and benign?
I disagree with using a different type of discrimination as a comparison for various reasons. Mainly, because it'll only put another nail in the bull's eye on the back of ethnic minorities, especially black people. More people use their experiences or history as a comparison, more resentful some will be towards them.
No wonder why there's always a "what if a black man..." to compare in threads like this one. How about if we back off and use other common targets of bigotry as a comparison?
I agree female circumcision is a bad example - but in the past some countries did not allow black people to marry white people... yet would everyone who supported the bakery's position in the case we are discussing support it if a black campaign group wanted a cake saying 'support mixed race marriage'. I suspect many would not, (Not all, because I accept that some people take a libertarian view here and think that any form of discrimination should be dealt with by market forces rather than the law).
Doesn't work because
a) It happened in Northern Ireland where there's - as far as I know, anyway - no history of outlawing interracial marriage
b) let's look at your wording: "some countries did not allow black people to marry white people". May I point out that white people weren't allowed to marry black people, either? Obviously, it wasn't just black people who were victimised by this type of racial discrimination. So why make it a black issue when it affected everyone involved?
This is why I don't agree with using another marginalised group as a comparison. It can distort the history and understanding of racism or bigotry.
That's why I think the law needs testing - I can see your pov here, but the difference is that sexuality is a protected characteristic and political affiliation isn't. If Sinn Fein had ordered the cake (I have no idea if they support SSM or not), would it be discrimination? I genuinely don't know... and I think it is important to see in a court.
But the bakery didn't refuse the order because of the customer's sexual orientation, which would of course be wrong, but because of the political statement it contained.
Oh come on. This has 'set-up' written all over it (as it were:D).
As FMKK noted upthread, the bakery is known for not making First Communion cakes.
Of course the fact that it is almost certainly a set-up does not invalidate the guy's attempt to get the bakery's decision tested in court but let's not pretend that this is some innocent purchaser who had no idea what would happen.
I wouldn't say that it's widely known to do that, just that I've heard of a couple of instances where they did. If that was pursued further then they would surely be done for discrimination on those grounds. I was just trying to point out that the company might be a bit iffy below the surface. And I highly doubt that this was a set-up really. It's the most central and one of the most well known bakers in the city so it would make perfect sense for this guy to walk two minutes from his office to go there.
That was my (fairly self-evident) take on the situation too. Gay marriage is on the books, and it really isn't necessary to go out of your way to antagonise people who, for one reason or another, aren't totally down with it.
Not in Northern Ireland, where fundamentalist Christians have a stranglehold on the place.
Yep! also Dr. Honeydew & Beaker. Statler & Waldorf are too. I think Fossie bear/Kermit/Miss Piggy have a tense love triangle going on that may yet end in tragedy:(
Refusing to serve the couple or allow them into the shop on the basis of their sexuality would be discrimination. This is not what happened.
The bakery have declined to fulfil a custom order based on them not agreeing with the message. This is something they are well within their rights to do. You can't force a shop to sell a particular product just because you want it!
It was for a anti homophobia event held by The Lord Mayor of North Down.
The cake was eventually made by a bakery in Bangor. Although I don't know why this thread talks about it being a Belfast bakery when other news reports say it was Newtownabbey the bakery was in which is outside of Belfast, Newtownabbey is not exactly known for it's tolerance to modern day life.
A story I read (or perhaps it was on here) referenced Belfast so I just assumed it was the Ashers in Royal Avenue. But I agree with your assessment of Newtownabbey. A shitehole run and dominated by the DUP. I know, I'm FROM THERE!. >:(
A story I read (or perhaps it was on here) referenced Belfast so I just assumed it was the Ashers in Royal Avenue. But I agree with your assessment of Newtownabbey. A shitehole run and dominated by the DUP. I know, I'm FROM THERE!. >:(
The confusion maybe becouse the Belfast Telegraph article from the OP said it was a Belfast bakery, but then quoted an Asher's spokesman from the Newtownabbey branch.
But they took the order and then cleared it with head office because of what was being asked, if it a case of turning the customer down because they were gay why bother taking the order at all?
Well you know how these christians like to feel like martyrs and also the odious christian "mental" institute need some more business no doubt. After all, their previous record is so good! Lol
Refusing to serve the couple or allow them into the shop on the basis of their sexuality would be discrimination. This is not what happened.
The bakery have declined to fulfil a custom order based on them not agreeing with the message. This is something they are well within their rights to do. You can't force a shop to sell a particular product just because you want it!
I actually have a lot of sympathy for them on this matter. If we were take the legislation to it's logical conclusion, they could be forced by law to put just about any message on a cake, no matter how at odds it was with their personal beliefs.
By politely refusing. Personally I think the baker is being a bit of jerk and missing a business opportunity (maybe several if word gets around) but as long as it was a polite refusal I don't have a problem with it. Too many people these days think that 'being tolerant' means agreeing with other people and doing what they want and it doesn't.
Where shops and services are concerned it's a slightly grey area. I don't think they should refuse to sell items to people but I do think the baker should have the right to refuse to write certain messages on their products. It's their product and it advertises their company so I think they should have the right to determine what it looks like. Call it 'editorial policy' :)Ah now there I don't agree. That would be treating them differently and to an extent possibly even dishonest. Far better to be upfront and politely decline the order.
There's no polite way to discriminate.
Discrimination is just that. I don't care if the person discrimination is as polite as it gets. They're still idiots.
By making the cake the bakery wouldn't then turn into a gay cake Central now would it be known afterwards that the baker had huge support for gay marriage. He'd just be a baker doing, erm some baking.
It's attitudes like 'I support people having their own views even if they're prejudice' that allow such things as hate Crimes to be so common in this country.
What we need is a no tolerance policy. As a country we need to say 'No I don't support anyone who has the view that it's okay to discriminate against gay people. Just as I don't support anyone who has the view racism, ageism, sexism or any other 'ism' is okay. It's not acceptable to think like that'
And the sooner we as a country tell biggots this the better. No actually it's not okay believe being gay is wrong because your imaginary friend said so. In the same way as it's not okay to think coloured people should sit at the back of the bus. It's not okay to discriminate against people.
If someone discriminated against you or one of your loved ones I assume you'd be a-okay with it as long as they said please and thanks?
Because it was a black issue. White people didn't get lynched for breaking that law...
Black people were lynched for all sorts of reasons, but marrying white people wasn't one of those reasons. How can that be possible when they had no way of obtaining a marriage licence anywhere in the U.S. during that period?
Believe it or not, there were interracial couples 'living in sin' during that time. As far as I know, none of them were lynched for it. They certainly were harassed, though. Had their homes raided every other month. White common-law spouses were treated as social outcasts. The difficulties of finding employment and such. The list is endless.
Like I say, it wasn't a black issue. Never was, really, because it was a civil-right issue.
I will refrain from discussing this topic any further because I feel guilty for derailing the thread with this. Apologies to all.
Discrimination is just that. I don't care if the person discrimination is as polite as it gets. They're still idiots.
By making the cake the bakery wouldn't then turn into a gay cake Central now would it be known afterwards that the baker had huge support for gay marriage. He'd just be a baker doing, erm some baking.
It's attitudes like 'I support people having their own views even if they're prejudice' that allow such things as hate Crimes to be so common in this country.
What we need is a no tolerance policy. As a country we need to say 'No I don't support anyone who has the view that it's okay to discriminate against gay people. Just as I don't support anyone who has the view racism, ageism, sexism or any other 'ism' is okay. It's not acceptable to think like that'
And the sooner we as a country tell biggots this the better. No actually it's not okay believe being gay is wrong because your imaginary friend said so. In the same way as it's not okay to think coloured people should sit at the back of the bus. It's not okay to discriminate against people.
If someone discriminated against you or one of your loved ones I assume you'd be a-okay with it as long as they said please and thanks?
So anyone who is opposed to gay marriage is an idiot and a bigot? But there are even gay people who don't agree with gay marriage and who don't want to see it legalised.
It was for a anti homophobia event held by The Lord Mayor of North Down.
The cake was eventually made by a bakery in Bangor. Although I don't know why this thread talks about it being a Belfast bakery when other news reports say it was Newtownabbey the bakery was in which is outside of Belfast, Newtownabbey is not exactly known for it's tolerance to modern day life.
They're based in newtownabbey but have other shops elsewhere. The shop in Belfast was where the gay cake was ordered.
And the sooner we as a country tell biggots this the better. No actually it's not okay believe being gay is wrong because your imaginary friend said so. In the same way as it's not okay to think coloured people should sit at the back of the bus. It's not okay to discriminate against people.
You can't force people to change their beliefs.
I'm not religious in the slightest, and don't base my life decisions on what is supposedly acceptable to some deity, but I accept that some people do - and that their freedom to do so is protected by law.
Manifesting that belief by refusing to serve someone, for example, is clearly unacceptable and is recognised as such by the law. I'm not sure i'm comfortable in extending that to essentially prohibit someone from disagreeing with gay marriage, etc.
So anyone who is opposed to gay marriage is an idiot and a bigot? But there are even gay people who don't agree with gay marriage and who don't want to see it legalised.
No. I'm gay. Whilst I support everyone's right to marry/be in a civil partnership with whoever they want I don't actually want any part of it myself.
Anyone who discriminates against someone based on their sexuality, colour, creed, race...anything. Is an idiot. And we as a country shouldn't tolerate it.
And refusing to bake a bloody cake for someone simply because it says 'support gay marriage' Is just pathetic. The baker doesn't particularly wish everyone he's made a birthday cake for a happy birthday does he, but he didn't say 'well, I don't support Mary's 50th since I don't know her so don't think I'm making that cake'.
Comments
That's why I think the law needs testing - I can see your pov here, but the difference is that sexuality is a protected characteristic and political affiliation isn't. If Sinn Fein had ordered the cake (I have no idea if they support SSM or not), would it be discrimination? I genuinely don't know... and I think it is important to see in a court.
That's the point people are making it isn't technically the same. They are refusing to make the cake because of what it says, they aren't refusing to serve the customer because of who they are. If a gay person walked into the shop and ordered a muffin they would serve them.
I disagree with using a different type of discrimination as a comparison for various reasons. Mainly, because it'll only put another nail in the bull's eye on the back of ethnic minorities, especially black people. More people use their experiences or history as a comparison, more resentful some will be towards them.
No wonder why there's always a "what if a black man..." to compare in threads like this one. How about if we back off and use other common targets of bigotry as a comparison?
Doesn't work because
a) It happened in Northern Ireland where there's - as far as I know, anyway - no history of outlawing interracial marriage
b) let's look at your wording: "some countries did not allow black people to marry white people". May I point out that white people weren't allowed to marry black people, either? Obviously, it wasn't just black people who were victimised by this type of racial discrimination. So why make it a black issue when it affected everyone involved?
This is why I don't agree with using another marginalised group as a comparison. It can distort the history and understanding of racism or bigotry.
But the bakery didn't refuse the order because of the customer's sexual orientation, which would of course be wrong, but because of the political statement it contained.
If you went to a Jewish bakery and asked for a Hitler cake would they have to make it?[/QUOTE]
>>>>>>
If there was a prize - this should be the winner !
I wouldn't say that it's widely known to do that, just that I've heard of a couple of instances where they did. If that was pursued further then they would surely be done for discrimination on those grounds. I was just trying to point out that the company might be a bit iffy below the surface. And I highly doubt that this was a set-up really. It's the most central and one of the most well known bakers in the city so it would make perfect sense for this guy to walk two minutes from his office to go there.
Not in Northern Ireland, where fundamentalist Christians have a stranglehold on the place.
They've been sleeping together for years.
Yep! also Dr. Honeydew & Beaker. Statler & Waldorf are too. I think Fossie bear/Kermit/Miss Piggy have a tense love triangle going on that may yet end in tragedy:(
The bakery have declined to fulfil a custom order based on them not agreeing with the message. This is something they are well within their rights to do. You can't force a shop to sell a particular product just because you want it!
A story I read (or perhaps it was on here) referenced Belfast so I just assumed it was the Ashers in Royal Avenue. But I agree with your assessment of Newtownabbey. A shitehole run and dominated by the DUP. I know, I'm FROM THERE!.
The confusion maybe becouse the Belfast Telegraph article from the OP said it was a Belfast bakery, but then quoted an Asher's spokesman from the Newtownabbey branch.
Because it was a black issue. White people didn't get lynched for breaking that law...
Well you know how these christians like to feel like martyrs and also the odious christian "mental" institute need some more business no doubt. After all, their previous record is so good! Lol
I actually have a lot of sympathy for them on this matter. If we were take the legislation to it's logical conclusion, they could be forced by law to put just about any message on a cake, no matter how at odds it was with their personal beliefs.
There's no polite way to discriminate.
Discrimination is just that. I don't care if the person discrimination is as polite as it gets. They're still idiots.
By making the cake the bakery wouldn't then turn into a gay cake Central now would it be known afterwards that the baker had huge support for gay marriage. He'd just be a baker doing, erm some baking.
It's attitudes like 'I support people having their own views even if they're prejudice' that allow such things as hate Crimes to be so common in this country.
What we need is a no tolerance policy. As a country we need to say 'No I don't support anyone who has the view that it's okay to discriminate against gay people. Just as I don't support anyone who has the view racism, ageism, sexism or any other 'ism' is okay. It's not acceptable to think like that'
And the sooner we as a country tell biggots this the better. No actually it's not okay believe being gay is wrong because your imaginary friend said so. In the same way as it's not okay to think coloured people should sit at the back of the bus. It's not okay to discriminate against people.
If someone discriminated against you or one of your loved ones I assume you'd be a-okay with it as long as they said please and thanks?
I can see the comparison.
What with the gays being responsible for the mass genocide of the Irish. And other such atrocities. Those gays!!
Black people were lynched for all sorts of reasons, but marrying white people wasn't one of those reasons. How can that be possible when they had no way of obtaining a marriage licence anywhere in the U.S. during that period?
Believe it or not, there were interracial couples 'living in sin' during that time. As far as I know, none of them were lynched for it. They certainly were harassed, though. Had their homes raided every other month. White common-law spouses were treated as social outcasts. The difficulties of finding employment and such. The list is endless.
Like I say, it wasn't a black issue. Never was, really, because it was a civil-right issue.
I will refrain from discussing this topic any further because I feel guilty for derailing the thread with this. Apologies to all.
So anyone who is opposed to gay marriage is an idiot and a bigot? But there are even gay people who don't agree with gay marriage and who don't want to see it legalised.
They're based in newtownabbey but have other shops elsewhere. The shop in Belfast was where the gay cake was ordered.
You can't force people to change their beliefs.
I'm not religious in the slightest, and don't base my life decisions on what is supposedly acceptable to some deity, but I accept that some people do - and that their freedom to do so is protected by law.
Manifesting that belief by refusing to serve someone, for example, is clearly unacceptable and is recognised as such by the law. I'm not sure i'm comfortable in extending that to essentially prohibit someone from disagreeing with gay marriage, etc.
No. I'm gay. Whilst I support everyone's right to marry/be in a civil partnership with whoever they want I don't actually want any part of it myself.
Anyone who discriminates against someone based on their sexuality, colour, creed, race...anything. Is an idiot. And we as a country shouldn't tolerate it.
And refusing to bake a bloody cake for someone simply because it says 'support gay marriage' Is just pathetic. The baker doesn't particularly wish everyone he's made a birthday cake for a happy birthday does he, but he didn't say 'well, I don't support Mary's 50th since I don't know her so don't think I'm making that cake'.