No delly, you are conflating your personal disbelief that the Kims are Gods with a belief that this also makes the N. Koreans Atheists.
It does not. To them Kim Jong-il was a God - they deifyed him, they worshipped him, they believed he was supernatural - everything you believe about your God. Additionally, they had exactly the same amount of proof about his abilities as you do about your Gods abilities.
If I deny your God is real it doesn't suddenly make you an atheist.
You may believe they are Heathens for not worshipping your God but likewise it does not make them atheist just because you think their figurehead is a man not a God.
Having read through to the end of the thread, I thought I'd pop back to this post because I think you're hitting the nail on the head here Skyclad. I suspect, though, that while atheists will, on the whole, get your point immediately, it may not be quite as easy for the religious.
Depends upon what you believe about Christianity at all doesn't it.
And, no they dont. North Koreans will suffer in this life; not the next.
Actually, if they are religious, they might believe they will suffer in the next life also. Lose/lose.
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, and the soul, then you believe that this life is finite and the potential suffering afterwards in infinite. Eternal suffering is worse than suffering a finite amount of time in this life, surely?
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, and the soul, then you believe that this life is finite and the potential suffering afterwards in infinite. Eternal suffering is worse than suffering a finite amount of time in this life, surely?
Although it must be said that many believe that hell represents separation from God as opposed to the Dante's Inferno idea of purgatory. It depends who you speak to.
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, and the soul, then you believe that this life is finite and the potential suffering afterwards in infinite. Eternal suffering is worse than suffering a finite amount of time in this life, surely?
EVERY evening North Korean defector Seok-Young Lee broadcasts a round-up of global news to the poor souls trapped in the brutal world of his Stalinist homeland.
“I do it because the people there are brainwashed,” said the director of Free North Korea Radio, speaking in South Korean capital Seoul last night.
“They only know the regime’s lies and nothing of the outside world.”
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-korea-defector-on-how-state-brainwashes-people.html#ixzz2ZClWLMSQ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9191998/What-North-Koreans-really-think-of-Kim-Jong-un.html
North Korea's official mobile telephone network, built and run by an Egyptian firm, only has an estimated 600,000 users - mostly privileged members of the Communist Party elite who would not risk contacting someone abroad.
But increasing numbers of people, especially in the north of the country near the border with China, now have mobile telephones that use the Chinese mobile network, enabling them - if they dare - to make and receive calls from some of the 30,000 defectors now living in South Korea http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308705/Inside-North-Korea-A-rare-dispatch-deep-lunatic-rogue-state-enslaved-Zombie-Sons.html http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-north-korea-video-photos-1826234
A child of around 10 sits dying of starvation by the side of the road while just yards away soldiers load enough rice on to trucks to feed families for weeks.
As the young boy slumps on the grimy kerb in his filthy, oversized army jacket, locals stroll past zombie-style without even glancing in his direction or displaying an ounce of pity for his wretched plight.
Nearby his friends scavenge in disease-ridden rubbish tips for scraps of what might pass for food in a land where people are so poor they are forced to eat tree bark or even corpses, according to those on the inside.
And not far away, prisoners are herded from their harsh labour camps to *frantically dig out crops from frozen ground while trigger-happy troops hover over them waiting for the one wrong move that could end with death.
This is the real North Korea. The one its warmongering leader Kim Jong-un does not want the outside world to see.
I dont know how you got that from the post that you replied to. The above is suffering. This is going on here and now in North Korea and somehow it is being compared to religion?
How on earth does anyone in England or the West know what this feels like? We have choice?
You have choice Stormwave to believe or not to believe? Ther North Koreans dont. They cannot follow a religion. The only regime that can be comparable to theirs is Stalinism. So, is Stalinism comparable to religion.............
These discussions do floor me at times..............
EVERY evening North Korean defector Seok-Young Lee broadcasts a round-up of global news to the poor souls trapped in the brutal world of his Stalinist homeland.
“I do it because the people there are brainwashed,” said the director of Free North Korea Radio, speaking in South Korean capital Seoul last night.
“They only know the regime’s lies and nothing of the outside world.”
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-korea-defector-on-how-state-brainwashes-people.html#ixzz2ZClWLMSQ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9191998/What-North-Koreans-really-think-of-Kim-Jong-un.html
North Korea's official mobile telephone network, built and run by an Egyptian firm, only has an estimated 600,000 users - mostly privileged members of the Communist Party elite who would not risk contacting someone abroad.
But increasing numbers of people, especially in the north of the country near the border with China, now have mobile telephones that use the Chinese mobile network, enabling them - if they dare - to make and receive calls from some of the 30,000 defectors now living in South Korea http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308705/Inside-North-Korea-A-rare-dispatch-deep-lunatic-rogue-state-enslaved-Zombie-Sons.html http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-north-korea-video-photos-1826234
A child of around 10 sits dying of starvation by the side of the road while just yards away soldiers load enough rice on to trucks to feed families for weeks.
As the young boy slumps on the grimy kerb in his filthy, oversized army jacket, locals stroll past zombie-style without even glancing in his direction or displaying an ounce of pity for his wretched plight.
Nearby his friends scavenge in disease-ridden rubbish tips for scraps of what might pass for food in a land where people are so poor they are forced to eat tree bark or even corpses, according to those on the inside.
And not far away, prisoners are herded from their harsh labour camps to *frantically dig out crops from frozen ground while trigger-happy troops hover over them waiting for the one wrong move that could end with death.
This is the real North Korea. The one its warmongering leader Kim Jong-un does not want the outside world to see.
I dont know how you got that from the post that you replied to. The above is suffering. This is going on here and now in North Korea and somehow it is being compared to religion?
How on earth does anyone in England or the West know what this feels like? We have choice?
You have choice Stormwave to believe or not to believe? Ther North Koreans dont. They cannot follow a religion. The only regime that can be comparable to theirs is Stalinism. So, is Stalinism comparable to religion.............
These discussions do floor me at times..............
My point was directly in regards to the comment that:
They have the exact same choice that the Christian god gives people; believe or suffer.
You were saying they were worse for making people suffer in this life, I was saying surely suffering for infinity is worse.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I know that is not something you believe, I was adding it in as an extension of the earlier discussion in this thread about Hell.
I think the North Koreans can follow a religion but do it quietly. They even sponsor Buddhism ( that they call a religion).
When I was in Saudia Arabia ( Islamic rule) you could follow Christianity if you did it quietly, but not gatherings. Jewish religion, not tolerated. So I have to admit that some religious states can be intolerant also. Edit, maybe you don't get tortured but you would not want to be in a jail there.
My point was directly in regards to the comment that:
You were saying they were worse for making people suffer in this life, I was saying surely suffering for infinity is worse.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I know that is not something you believe, I was adding it in as an extension of the earlier discussion in this thread about Hell.
If the North Koreans believe in God or an alternative spirituality like re-incarnation for example then they are not allowed to practice it. They are sent to camps. So, they are suffering in this life and may well believe that they will suffer in the next also. That is the lose/lose situation, I was referring to. Also, if they are conforming to a belief which they do not actually follow they will also be in denial. Therefore, again they will be in a lose/lose situation.
If however, they do believe in their leader as being god then they have nothing to lose in their eternal life. In fact, the closest inner circles benefit profusely. But, that is not what is coming out of North Korea. People should have choices. Even China is now acknowledging this.
Hell for me is separation from God. Or, death or the grave. Different to punishment which is of course, up to God and I know not what it entails. Not that you believe that:)
Is that one of the parts 'we aren't meant to understand' then. Or do the words (in particular the word "Word") have an original meaning, which perhaps someone can clarify?
Certainly is completely meaningless as it stands.
Yes it's from logos which in a broader sense is about logical (masculine) thought; as opposed to sophos which in a broader sense is about wisdom (feminine - not mentioned anywhere around the quote) in a sense that is not the same but complementary to the logos one.
Hell for me is separation from God. Or, death or the grave. Different to punishment which is of course, up to God and I know not what it entails. Not that you believe that:)
Interesting comment about death or the grave.
Part of becoming an atheist, for me anyway, is learning to accept the finality of death as part and parcel of life. That seems straightforward for me at the moment when (hopefully) death is still a far off event. I'm not sure how easy it will be to maintain that when it's looming, but I'll have had a good few years preparing for the prospect.
I do wonder how much of what moves people towards religion is connected to a fear or denial of mortality. I know it's not the only driving force, but I do think it is a major one.
Totalitarian states are not so much about religion ( or lack of it) as they are about power and maintaining it. They do not want any other ideology to interfere with the power structure. I would have said the same about Saudi Arabia ( and yes, you can starve in a prison there if your home country does not feed you). In Saudi it was about the power of males and then certain males over certain other males, because clearly there were persons who did not follow sharia law.
It is important to know whether you are talking about religion or power, as they get entwined.
Religions are just systems of power and control with brand names attached. A collection of laws, beliefs, prejudices, taboos, wrapped up in a neat package deal.
Part of becoming an atheist, for me anyway, is learning to accept the finality of death as part and parcel of life. That seems straightforward for me at the moment when (hopefully) death is still a far off event. I'm not sure how easy it will be to maintain that when it's looming, but I'll have had a good few years preparing for the prospect.
I do wonder how much of what moves people towards religion is connected to a fear or denial of mortality. I know it's not the only driving force, but I do think it is a major one.
There was little fear of death in Judaism or early Christianity., Came about in mediavel times, more Dante than Bible. If you are interested google, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna or Tarturas for original Hebrew and Greek definition of 'hell'. I dont think people believe because of heaven or hell. No-one can force people to love God out of fear. Although, some people do go through repentance and are transformed in this life. So faith is living not waiting.
Religions are just systems of power and control with brand names attached. A collection of laws, beliefs, prejudices, taboos, wrapped up in a neat package deal.
Religions are just systems of power and control with brand names attached. A collection of laws, beliefs, prejudices, taboos, wrapped up in a neat package deal.
Yes, political personality cults can be called quasi-religions, I'd say. The external god (which doesn't exist except as an idea (IMO, of course) is substituted with the totalitarian ruler.
Religions and ideologies create identity, conformity and distinguish between us and them (not that's all they do - they perform useful functions, too, and mean something on a personal level to people. But religions are not a special form of human endeavour or organisation, just another aspect of the same sort of thing. Some people compare the idea of the nation state with religion, with constitutions and other founding documents being quasi-sacred).
There was little fear of death in Judaism or early Christianity., Came about in mediavel times, more Dante than Bible. If you are interested google, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna or Tarturas for original Hebrew and Greek definition of 'hell'. I dont think people believe because of heaven or hell. No-one can force people to love God out of fear. Although, some people do go through repentance and are transformed in this life. So faith is living not waiting.
I accept that there are other motivations for belief than fear of death, but I'm not sure it can be discounted so easily.
Right; that narrows the problem down to misunderstanding. Permit me to help. If read Stormwave's posts carefully you will see that they do not subscribe to religious belief. Hence they don't actually believe that they will suffer for eternity for religious reasons.
Comments
Depends upon what you believe about Christianity at all doesn't it.
And, no they dont. North Koreans will suffer in this life; not the next.
Actually, if they are religious, they might believe they will suffer in the next life also. Lose/lose.
Although it seems to be more a case of worship *and* suffer
I understood your replies perfectly. However, I thought you were asking about my interpretation.
I interpreted them, at the time, as you having a lack of understanding.
On consideration, prompted by your question, I now interpret them as evidence of your cognitive dissonance.
Ok, I will just interprete yours as being rude and leave it like that. To nice a day to waste it on you:)
Enjoy your day!
Having read through to the end of the thread, I thought I'd pop back to this post because I think you're hitting the nail on the head here Skyclad. I suspect, though, that while atheists will, on the whole, get your point immediately, it may not be quite as easy for the religious.
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, and the soul, then you believe that this life is finite and the potential suffering afterwards in infinite. Eternal suffering is worse than suffering a finite amount of time in this life, surely?
Although it must be said that many believe that hell represents separation from God as opposed to the Dante's Inferno idea of purgatory. It depends who you speak to.
North Korea may officially be an atheist state, but there are still religions. There is even shamanism. Evangelicals can get arrested.
EVERY evening North Korean defector Seok-Young Lee broadcasts a round-up of global news to the poor souls trapped in the brutal world of his Stalinist homeland.
“I do it because the people there are brainwashed,” said the director of Free North Korea Radio, speaking in South Korean capital Seoul last night.
“They only know the regime’s lies and nothing of the outside world.”
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-korea-defector-on-how-state-brainwashes-people.html#ixzz2ZClWLMSQ
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9191998/What-North-Koreans-really-think-of-Kim-Jong-un.html
North Korea's official mobile telephone network, built and run by an Egyptian firm, only has an estimated 600,000 users - mostly privileged members of the Communist Party elite who would not risk contacting someone abroad.
But increasing numbers of people, especially in the north of the country near the border with China, now have mobile telephones that use the Chinese mobile network, enabling them - if they dare - to make and receive calls from some of the 30,000 defectors now living in South Korea
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308705/Inside-North-Korea-A-rare-dispatch-deep-lunatic-rogue-state-enslaved-Zombie-Sons.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-north-korea-video-photos-1826234
A child of around 10 sits dying of starvation by the side of the road while just yards away soldiers load enough rice on to trucks to feed families for weeks.
As the young boy slumps on the grimy kerb in his filthy, oversized army jacket, locals stroll past zombie-style without even glancing in his direction or displaying an ounce of pity for his wretched plight.
Nearby his friends scavenge in disease-ridden rubbish tips for scraps of what might pass for food in a land where people are so poor they are forced to eat tree bark or even corpses, according to those on the inside.
And not far away, prisoners are herded from their harsh labour camps to *frantically dig out crops from frozen ground while trigger-happy troops hover over them waiting for the one wrong move that could end with death.
This is the real North Korea. The one its warmongering leader Kim Jong-un does not want the outside world to see.
Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-north-korea-video-photos-1826234#ixzz2ZCnhaRIK
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
I dont know how you got that from the post that you replied to. The above is suffering. This is going on here and now in North Korea and somehow it is being compared to religion?
How on earth does anyone in England or the West know what this feels like? We have choice?
You have choice Stormwave to believe or not to believe? Ther North Koreans dont. They cannot follow a religion. The only regime that can be comparable to theirs is Stalinism. So, is Stalinism comparable to religion.............
These discussions do floor me at times..............
My point was directly in regards to the comment that:
You were saying they were worse for making people suffer in this life, I was saying surely suffering for infinity is worse.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I know that is not something you believe, I was adding it in as an extension of the earlier discussion in this thread about Hell.
When I was in Saudia Arabia ( Islamic rule) you could follow Christianity if you did it quietly, but not gatherings. Jewish religion, not tolerated. So I have to admit that some religious states can be intolerant also. Edit, maybe you don't get tortured but you would not want to be in a jail there.
If the North Koreans believe in God or an alternative spirituality like re-incarnation for example then they are not allowed to practice it. They are sent to camps. So, they are suffering in this life and may well believe that they will suffer in the next also. That is the lose/lose situation, I was referring to. Also, if they are conforming to a belief which they do not actually follow they will also be in denial. Therefore, again they will be in a lose/lose situation.
If however, they do believe in their leader as being god then they have nothing to lose in their eternal life. In fact, the closest inner circles benefit profusely. But, that is not what is coming out of North Korea. People should have choices. Even China is now acknowledging this.
Hell for me is separation from God. Or, death or the grave. Different to punishment which is of course, up to God and I know not what it entails. Not that you believe that:)
Yes it's from logos which in a broader sense is about logical (masculine) thought; as opposed to sophos which in a broader sense is about wisdom (feminine - not mentioned anywhere around the quote) in a sense that is not the same but complementary to the logos one.
Part of becoming an atheist, for me anyway, is learning to accept the finality of death as part and parcel of life. That seems straightforward for me at the moment when (hopefully) death is still a far off event. I'm not sure how easy it will be to maintain that when it's looming, but I'll have had a good few years preparing for the prospect.
I do wonder how much of what moves people towards religion is connected to a fear or denial of mortality. I know it's not the only driving force, but I do think it is a major one.
It is important to know whether you are talking about religion or power, as they get entwined.
There was little fear of death in Judaism or early Christianity., Came about in mediavel times, more Dante than Bible. If you are interested google, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna or Tarturas for original Hebrew and Greek definition of 'hell'. I dont think people believe because of heaven or hell. No-one can force people to love God out of fear. Although, some people do go through repentance and are transformed in this life. So faith is living not waiting.
Like politics, regimes and other ideologies.
Religions and ideologies create identity, conformity and distinguish between us and them (not that's all they do - they perform useful functions, too, and mean something on a personal level to people. But religions are not a special form of human endeavour or organisation, just another aspect of the same sort of thing. Some people compare the idea of the nation state with religion, with constitutions and other founding documents being quasi-sacred).
I accept that there are other motivations for belief than fear of death, but I'm not sure it can be discounted so easily.
Blimey, you must have some patience totting them all up... :cool:
A Teapot:rolleyes:
Give them a point as well then
The word death occurs 372 times in 342 verses in the KJV
Hell occurs 54 times in 54 verses in the KJV
Heaven occurs 582 times in 550 verses in the KJV
Fairy or Sky Fairy is not found in the KJV
LIFE beats DEATH at 550; sadly there is no instance of it being used in conjunction the words GET A.:D
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Popular-Bible-Words-1.php
Except of course you could say that the entire bible is God's attempt to show us how to literally Get A Life (an eternal one at that)