Superb season, superb finale. The last 3 episodes have been some of the best GOT we've seen. Shame it's only 10 episodes, I could happily watch this every week!
Special mention must go to the Directors this season, the visual style and cinematography really has been top notch. Episode 9 was like a mini movie, it was that good.
I thought Arya was an ungrateful b*tch to Brienne but then had to grin when she took the Hound's water and then walked away from him. And outright smiling when the captain said he was going to Bravos!
Was it water? I thought it was his money pouch?
I had him cast as a rigidly moral man so I did not see that coming.
I'm not sure he would consider bedding Shae immoral. He's not married or anything. Still, I suppose it was a bit hypocritical given his distaste for Tyrion's dalliances.
Sad to see Dany have to chain her dragons but it was inevitable. The girl's death was the only spoiler I knew for S4 beyond Joffrey dying at his wedding. I did well! Her poor maid though, having to say all those titles for every single petitioner!
I think she probably enjoys it. In a way it bigs up her own status to be serving such a paragon
Do you have an alternative suggestion? Short of putting them down, of course.
Read/watch "How To Train Your Dragon"?:D
But seriously, dragons are not mythical in GOT world so there would be knowledge stored somewhere about how to keep them/train them.
I think a better alternative would be to accept there was going to be some collateral damage and weigh it up against the worth of the dragons to her Iron Throne ambitions.
What she has done is merely delay the problem and p*ss off the dragons.
I'm not sure he would consider bedding Shae immoral. He's not married or anything. Still, I suppose it was a bit hypocritical given his distaste for Tyrion's dalliances.
I think she probably enjoys it. In a way it bigs up her own status to be serving such a paragon
Yes, I believe it was money, my mistake.
He has made his feelings about **** well known which is why I cast him in that role. Most accept **** as part of life (albiet distasteful) yet Twyin unusually among his peers was always against them very strongly.
I bet Dany's maid loves to serve her but that is one ream of titles she has to state over and over and over
I wonder how long Shae was against Tyrion? Was it from the very beginning? Or only as a reaction to him sending her away.
I felt he was a little harsh but then she did try to kill him first....
It's what I never got. She's no simple woman. She knew exactly why Tyrion get trying to get her to leave, and she kept trying to stay, to sway him towards her? Even if she was just "willing to risk it" she HAD to know why Tyrion finally did send her away, and yet she still betrayed him. Tywin constantly refering to her as a **** leads me to believe he didn't just buy her for his bed, but also bought her to betray Tyrion at the trial...maybe even long before then to "keep an eye on him".
As for the deaths. I've known for several seasons now thanks to some *****. I didn't know how, only that Tyrion would do it. They've been on "my clock of hurry up and die". SO ANNOYING. Tywin totally deserved, even Shae did. Felt gutted for Tyrion though, saying he'd murdered her. She plotted for your death, then immediately tried to kill you instead of trying to explain anything.In that moment it was self-defense.
My only problem with Shae being killed by Tyrion, is this may be his turning/corruption point. It really was just self defence, but all he'll see it as is killing the woman he loves. I don't want an evil Tyrion. The Lannister's don't deserve such a good family member.
Didn't like Stannis at first, but how kingly/knightly of him just showing up and kicking ass. I mean, who else are we supposed to root for to get on the throne?
Yeah, Melissandre can detect royal bloodlines (a girl's gotta create her demon babbas somehow, right?) and that stare at Jon I guess confirms something about his mother.
The dragons out of control, Bran being told he's going to fly and his Worg powers was just obvious hinting.
Those fireballs that kid was shooting seemed more like some sort of technology than spells. Almost like they homed in...unless she's really that super old and is like machine level skilled at throwing them.
I hope the wildlings deal with Barratheon holds water. All they really want is to escape being turned into an army of the undead. Let them have some of the lands that are going to no use due to all the house-falls south of the wall. Make a part of the deal that a substantial amount of them have to become crows. I can see Stannis forcing some of his men to become crows, too. The wall needs defending. Another reason I'm now liking Stannis; he risked his army taking, care of the actual threat first rather than his own political shenanigans like the rest of those ignorant/selfish idiots. They better take out Bolton next.
That was NOT how I expected the Brienne/Hound fight to go. I don't know why, but I expected them to actually get on, maybe give each other the eye. I mean, the fight gave me a Hercule vs. Xena playful fight vibe! Then Hound is half killed... I think though his scene is reflecting what's happening to his brother, and as such he WILL survive, as c'mon he and his brother have a showdown in the waiting, right?
I'm guessing Arya is going to go get some magic assassin training?
I think I would have liked Tyrion and Shae to have more of a conversation before their tussle, as I'm still a little unclear as to whether she was playing Tyrion all along (which I think she was) or whether she also loved him, but was so stupid, she couldn't understand why he sent her away and exacted the ultimate revenge - key prosecution witness then bedding his father!
I'm pretty sure she only betrayed him after the Purple Wedding. My reasons being;
1. A season -or-so back, Cercei mistook Roz for Tyrion's ****. They clearly didn't know about Shae back then.
2. It is only at the beginning of this season that Cercei is informed about Shae by the maid.
3. Cercei points Shae out to Tywin at the wedding and Tywin asks for her to be brought to the Tower of the Hand.
4. For a long while Shae was trying to convince Tyrion to leave King's Landing with her. If she had succeeded in convincing him, she would have been a useless spy for Tywin.
I'm pretty convinced that she was turned after the wedding. Regardless as to whether she realised Tyron's motives in sending her away, she'd always refused to go no matter how much he begged. Being mean to do it only meant he succeeded in forcing her away. I also think there was a lot of truth in what Tyrion ended up saying. He knew he could never marry Shae and so did she. He IS highborn and she IS a ****. No matter his motives, he did use some harsh and unpleasant truths to upset her into leaving.
I expect she was grabbed by Tyrion and given a choice, in much the way Pod described he was. She would have been offered the chance to be Tywin's personal ****, get paid well and get to live well. Alternatively, she could be hanged as Tyrion's co-conspirator. She chose to save herself
Just thought of something that I commented on during the episode, when Cersei was telling Tywin again that she wouldn't marry Loras, I turned to my boyfriend and said "well if she'd worked out who'd actually murdered Joffrey instead of obsessing over Tyrion the wedding would be off already!"
It really was a great finale, given me lots to think about today!
We've already been introduced to Tywin's brother Kevan, father of Lancel. So if Lannister inheritance is governed by Salic Law, Cersei and her children are passed-over and Kevan inherits Casterly Rock.
But we don't know. Although Tywin's conversation with Cersei tonight would suggest that the Rock would be hers.
Lannister inheritance isn't governed by Salic Law, so with Tyrion out of the picture and Jaime unable to inherit, the rock goes to Cersei, then Tommen (or Myrcella if he's passed over for being King).
My only problem with Shae being killed by Tyrion, is this may be his turning/corruption point. It really was just self defence, but all he'll see it as is killing the woman he loves. I don't want an evil Tyrion. The Lannister's don't deserve such a good family member.
Yes, we were discussing that last night. I loved the episode - well, once I realised they were tying up the loose ends and we WOULD return to Kings Landing and find out what happened! I had honestly thought that, with The Mountain dead almost simultaneously, Tyrione would be allowed to live. I was shocked that he was still going to be executed. It was such an exciting episode and yet, the moment Tyrione comes on screen - everything seems dull in comparison. He has SUCH charisma. I think it is his stillness. What he did was quite shocking: the guy who hates to fight
As most people will know, Peter Dinklage was in the new X Men film which we saw last week: he was such a great villain!
I see what you mean, particularly regarding how/why Ned died, but I suppose Jon, as the son of Ned stood out amongst the rest of the 'usurpers' Stannis has been dealing with and he had a rare magnanimous moment. Had Jon suggested letting Mance go, I doubt Stannis would have agreed to that! Having said that, Stannis considered Robb, another of Ned's sons to be a usurper, but I suppose the difference is that Jon did not try and assert himself as a king. I was always a little puzzled by Stannis considering Robb to be a usurper - I always presumed that Robb was specifically rising up against the Lannisters being in power, but would have yielded to Stannis had he been successful at Blackwater. Maybe Stannis didn't get that memo?
Stannis was infuriated by Robb Stark because he sent his mother (Catelyn Stark) to broker a deal with Renly Baratheon to allow him to be King of the North if he helped put Renly on the throne.
Since Stannis was first in line before Renly that meant Robb had gone against Stannis' claim to the throne.
Stannis was infuriated by Robb Stark because he sent his mother (Catelyn Stark) to broker a deal with Renly Baratheon to allow him to be King of the North if he helped put Renly on the throne.
Since Stannis was first in line before Renly that meant Robb had gone against Stannis' claim to the throne.
Stannis was infuriated at Robb trying to claim the North for himself.
I'm not convinced Robb would have bent the knee because the whole point of him being named King in the North was the northern lords' general dissatisfaction at being dictated to by a king 1000 miles away. Joffrey being a complete arse fuelled that, but it wasn't the total reason.
I think I would have liked Tyrion and Shae to have more of a conversation before their tussle, as I'm still a little unclear as to whether she was playing Tyrion all along (which I think she was) or whether she also loved him, but was so stupid, she couldn't understand why he sent her away and exacted the ultimate revenge - key prosecution witness then bedding his father!
Did anyone else have a Harry Hill conversation in their house when The Hound and Brienne drew swords?
I thought Tyrion was looking for Shae to take her with him . I thought it was true love. But then when I realised she'd moved on to Tywin:o Maybe she did love Tyrion and this was her ultimate revenge, a woman scorned and all that. Maybe she wanted to get her hands on some Lannister money and fancied being a medieval WAG. Or maybe Tywin threatened her with death...
The hound and Brienne I thought they'd make a cute couple, well matched. I thought they would all team up as foursome. ... but when they started fighting holy sh*t it was brutal , brilliant, very exciting and poor Brienne lost some teeth.
Also big love for Varys saving dear Tyrion, I always liked him and at the trial I thought hmmmmmm he's been corrupted but wow next season two of my favourites together should be interesting , plenty of gossipy, political, secret revealing conversations
It was an amazing WTF finale!!! Surely one of the most amazing tv dramas. Makes Lord of the Rings look like play school
Having read both LOTR and AGoT up to book 3 then I find the series is often narrative mess with the characters given 2 minutes of dialogue then it hops on someone else for another scene.
Tolkien is by far the best writer in every sense as he actually knows how to drive a story forward where Martin's often fills pages with nonsense until the last few chapters.
If LOTR was ever adapted for television then there is no way they could do it justice as the world in far more vast and interesting than Westeros .
Tolkien is by far the best writer in every sense as he actually knows how to drive a story forward where Martin's often fills pages with nonsense until the last few chapters.
I've only read LotR and a little of the first book of GoT, but I find it hard to accept that Tolkien knows how to drive a story forward.
Yes, I love LotR and it is the de-facto standard of high fantasy. The detail of the world - particularly beyond LotR - is HUGE. But by god those books are a slog-and-a-half to read. The first half of Fellowship of the Ring is spent on mostly aimless wanderings that do nothing to drive home the seriousness of the situation. Its practically a bunch of separate mini-adventures. There are plenty of times where the narrative slows to a crawl because of excessive detail and/or characters deciding to recite ancient poetry and songs.
Tolkien was a fantastic, first class worldbuilder. He practically invented the notion of worldbuilding. He created an epic mythical fantasy. But he does have many flaws. His heroes are often too perfect and he very definitely allows his story to meander for the sake of his greater mythology. Anyone who knows the history of Beren and Luthien - and the random talk in LotR of the Silmarils - knows that Tolkien deviates from the plot of the book, just to tell other stories that he'd obviously rather be telling.
If GRRM is worse than Tolkien for driving a story forward, I'm surprised we're still not waiting for Ned Stark to get his head cut off!
Having read both LOTR and AGoT up to book 3 then I find the series is often narrative mess with the characters given 2 minutes of dialogue then it hops on someone else for another scene.
Tolkien is by far the best writer in every sense as he actually knows how to drive a story forward where Martin's often fills pages with nonsense until the last few chapters.
If LOTR was ever adapted for television then there is no way they could do it justice as the world in far more vast and interesting than Westeros .
I love both LotR and GoT, but I have to admit that the Westeros world is much better filled out than Middle Earth. In Middle Earth everybody is either a goodie or a baddie, in Westeros everybody has the ability to be good or bad. So much better.
The first half of Fellowship of the Ring is spent on mostly aimless wanderings that do nothing to drive home the seriousness of the situation. Its practically a bunch of separate mini-adventures. There are plenty of times where the narrative slows to a crawl because of excessive detail and/or characters deciding to recite ancient poetry and songs.
That is what makes the LOTR what it is and is why the book is so much better than the films especially FOTR, you actually get the hobbits "growing" as the story progresses.
The most boring part of the LOTR films are the large battles, GOT series is much better for limiting these.
That is what makes the LOTR what it is and is why the book is so much better than the films especially FOTR, you actually get the hobbits "growing" as the story progresses.
The most boring part of the LOTR films are the large battles, GOT series is much better for limiting these.
Perhaps. But when discussing Tolkien's superior ability to "drive a story forward," I think it deserves a mention. Whilst it adds masses of detail, it is certainly not an example of the story being driven forward. It plods forward at a very slow pace.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I just don't think Tolkien is a good example of someone who "drives a story forward." He can waffle with the best of them!
Comments
Special mention must go to the Directors this season, the visual style and cinematography really has been top notch. Episode 9 was like a mini movie, it was that good.
Was it water? I thought it was his money pouch?
I'm not sure he would consider bedding Shae immoral. He's not married or anything. Still, I suppose it was a bit hypocritical given his distaste for Tyrion's dalliances.
I think she probably enjoys it. In a way it bigs up her own status to be serving such a paragon
Read/watch "How To Train Your Dragon"?:D
But seriously, dragons are not mythical in GOT world so there would be knowledge stored somewhere about how to keep them/train them.
I think a better alternative would be to accept there was going to be some collateral damage and weigh it up against the worth of the dragons to her Iron Throne ambitions.
What she has done is merely delay the problem and p*ss off the dragons.
Yes, I believe it was money, my mistake.
He has made his feelings about **** well known which is why I cast him in that role. Most accept **** as part of life (albiet distasteful) yet Twyin unusually among his peers was always against them very strongly.
I bet Dany's maid loves to serve her but that is one ream of titles she has to state over and over and over
It's what I never got. She's no simple woman. She knew exactly why Tyrion get trying to get her to leave, and she kept trying to stay, to sway him towards her? Even if she was just "willing to risk it" she HAD to know why Tyrion finally did send her away, and yet she still betrayed him. Tywin constantly refering to her as a **** leads me to believe he didn't just buy her for his bed, but also bought her to betray Tyrion at the trial...maybe even long before then to "keep an eye on him".
As for the deaths. I've known for several seasons now thanks to some *****. I didn't know how, only that Tyrion would do it. They've been on "my clock of hurry up and die". SO ANNOYING. Tywin totally deserved, even Shae did. Felt gutted for Tyrion though, saying he'd murdered her. She plotted for your death, then immediately tried to kill you instead of trying to explain anything.In that moment it was self-defense.
My only problem with Shae being killed by Tyrion, is this may be his turning/corruption point. It really was just self defence, but all he'll see it as is killing the woman he loves. I don't want an evil Tyrion. The Lannister's don't deserve such a good family member.
Yeah, Melissandre can detect royal bloodlines (a girl's gotta create her demon babbas somehow, right?) and that stare at Jon I guess confirms something about his mother.
The dragons out of control, Bran being told he's going to fly and his Worg powers was just obvious hinting.
Those fireballs that kid was shooting seemed more like some sort of technology than spells. Almost like they homed in...unless she's really that super old and is like machine level skilled at throwing them.
I hope the wildlings deal with Barratheon holds water. All they really want is to escape being turned into an army of the undead. Let them have some of the lands that are going to no use due to all the house-falls south of the wall. Make a part of the deal that a substantial amount of them have to become crows. I can see Stannis forcing some of his men to become crows, too. The wall needs defending. Another reason I'm now liking Stannis; he risked his army taking, care of the actual threat first rather than his own political shenanigans like the rest of those ignorant/selfish idiots. They better take out Bolton next.
That was NOT how I expected the Brienne/Hound fight to go. I don't know why, but I expected them to actually get on, maybe give each other the eye. I mean, the fight gave me a Hercule vs. Xena playful fight vibe! Then Hound is half killed... I think though his scene is reflecting what's happening to his brother, and as such he WILL survive, as c'mon he and his brother have a showdown in the waiting, right?
I'm guessing Arya is going to go get some magic assassin training?
I'm pretty sure she only betrayed him after the Purple Wedding. My reasons being;
1. A season -or-so back, Cercei mistook Roz for Tyrion's ****. They clearly didn't know about Shae back then.
2. It is only at the beginning of this season that Cercei is informed about Shae by the maid.
3. Cercei points Shae out to Tywin at the wedding and Tywin asks for her to be brought to the Tower of the Hand.
4. For a long while Shae was trying to convince Tyrion to leave King's Landing with her. If she had succeeded in convincing him, she would have been a useless spy for Tywin.
I'm pretty convinced that she was turned after the wedding. Regardless as to whether she realised Tyron's motives in sending her away, she'd always refused to go no matter how much he begged. Being mean to do it only meant he succeeded in forcing her away. I also think there was a lot of truth in what Tyrion ended up saying. He knew he could never marry Shae and so did she. He IS highborn and she IS a ****. No matter his motives, he did use some harsh and unpleasant truths to upset her into leaving.
I expect she was grabbed by Tyrion and given a choice, in much the way Pod described he was. She would have been offered the chance to be Tywin's personal ****, get paid well and get to live well. Alternatively, she could be hanged as Tyrion's co-conspirator. She chose to save herself
It really was a great finale, given me lots to think about today!
Lannister inheritance isn't governed by Salic Law, so with Tyrion out of the picture and Jaime unable to inherit, the rock goes to Cersei, then Tommen (or Myrcella if he's passed over for being King).
Yes, we were discussing that last night. I loved the episode - well, once I realised they were tying up the loose ends and we WOULD return to Kings Landing and find out what happened! I had honestly thought that, with The Mountain dead almost simultaneously, Tyrione would be allowed to live. I was shocked that he was still going to be executed. It was such an exciting episode and yet, the moment Tyrione comes on screen - everything seems dull in comparison. He has SUCH charisma. I think it is his stillness. What he did was quite shocking: the guy who hates to fight
As most people will know, Peter Dinklage was in the new X Men film which we saw last week: he was such a great villain!
Since Stannis was first in line before Renly that meant Robb had gone against Stannis' claim to the throne.
Thanks, I'd forgotten that. Makes sense then.
I'm not convinced Robb would have bent the knee because the whole point of him being named King in the North was the northern lords' general dissatisfaction at being dictated to by a king 1000 miles away. Joffrey being a complete arse fuelled that, but it wasn't the total reason.
They should have just had a referendum on Northern independence. Would have been less bloody.
Maybe.
I thought Tyrion was looking for Shae to take her with him . I thought it was true love. But then when I realised she'd moved on to Tywin:o Maybe she did love Tyrion and this was her ultimate revenge, a woman scorned and all that. Maybe she wanted to get her hands on some Lannister money and fancied being a medieval WAG. Or maybe Tywin threatened her with death...
The hound and Brienne I thought they'd make a cute couple, well matched. I thought they would all team up as foursome. ... but when they started fighting holy sh*t it was brutal , brilliant, very exciting and poor Brienne lost some teeth.
Also big love for Varys saving dear Tyrion, I always liked him and at the trial I thought hmmmmmm
Having read both LOTR and AGoT up to book 3 then I find the series is often narrative mess with the characters given 2 minutes of dialogue then it hops on someone else for another scene.
Tolkien is by far the best writer in every sense as he actually knows how to drive a story forward where Martin's often fills pages with nonsense until the last few chapters.
If LOTR was ever adapted for television then there is no way they could do it justice as the world in far more vast and interesting than Westeros
I've only read LotR and a little of the first book of GoT, but I find it hard to accept that Tolkien knows how to drive a story forward.
Yes, I love LotR and it is the de-facto standard of high fantasy. The detail of the world - particularly beyond LotR - is HUGE. But by god those books are a slog-and-a-half to read. The first half of Fellowship of the Ring is spent on mostly aimless wanderings that do nothing to drive home the seriousness of the situation. Its practically a bunch of separate mini-adventures. There are plenty of times where the narrative slows to a crawl because of excessive detail and/or characters deciding to recite ancient poetry and songs.
Tolkien was a fantastic, first class worldbuilder. He practically invented the notion of worldbuilding. He created an epic mythical fantasy. But he does have many flaws. His heroes are often too perfect and he very definitely allows his story to meander for the sake of his greater mythology. Anyone who knows the history of Beren and Luthien - and the random talk in LotR of the Silmarils - knows that Tolkien deviates from the plot of the book, just to tell other stories that he'd obviously rather be telling.
If GRRM is worse than Tolkien for driving a story forward, I'm surprised we're still not waiting for Ned Stark to get his head cut off!
I love both LotR and GoT, but I have to admit that the Westeros world is much better filled out than Middle Earth. In Middle Earth everybody is either a goodie or a baddie, in Westeros everybody has the ability to be good or bad. So much better.
That is what makes the LOTR what it is and is why the book is so much better than the films especially FOTR, you actually get the hobbits "growing" as the story progresses.
The most boring part of the LOTR films are the large battles, GOT series is much better for limiting these.
Perhaps. But when discussing Tolkien's superior ability to "drive a story forward," I think it deserves a mention. Whilst it adds masses of detail, it is certainly not an example of the story being driven forward. It plods forward at a very slow pace.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I just don't think Tolkien is a good example of someone who "drives a story forward." He can waffle with the best of them!