And at least some respect is given to an unborn baby and questions asked . Far preferable IMO than total disregard for the life of a 20/21/22/23/24 week gestation baby
This one's only 17 weeks though. Not even remotely viable.
And at least some respect is given to an unborn baby and questions asked . Far preferable IMO than total disregard for the life of a 20/21/22/23/24 week gestation baby
It is 17 weeks. I also respect the wishes of her grieving family who clearly cannot cope.
The 8th Amendment of the Irish constitution didn't even mention "Abortion" - Abortion being banned is a by-product of the amendment.
You have to remember this was made law by 66.9% of the electorate - that's men and women btw... It did though lead to a very divisive debate - http://youtu.be/rJr6GWQOlCE?t=15m56s
I'm aware of all of that . It's a fact, by product or not.
In a Catholic dominated country that result is inevitable.
I see this new, never married or fathered a child Pope isn't budging an inch over this either. Never mind, send the poor women to the UK instead? That's allowed by the PTB isn't it? Hypocritical in the extreme.
Yes . Both deserve respect . So who deserves more ?
Her family of course. They are being put through hell against their wishes, whilst the government plays God.
Would any daughter wish that on her parents or children?
So when does he or she deserve respect in your opinion ?
It's not a question of 'respect'. It's a case of being realistic. This foetus can't survive outside of its mother's body & she's dead & decaying around it. Face facts - tragically, this pregnancy is not viable.
I'm aware of all of that . It's a fact, by product or not.
In a Catholic dominated country that result is inevitable.
I see this new, never married or fathered a child Pope isn't budging an inch over this either. Never mind, send the poor women to the UK instead? That's allowed by the PTB isn't it? Hypocritical in the extreme.
But its the will of the majority of the people of Ireland - you might disagree with our stance on abortion but we are a democracy and make up our own minds on such issues since independence.
Gay marriage will be passed in May 2015, we are far from a backward Catholic country (possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe over the last 20 years) but the abortion issue has always been a fundamental difference between Ireland and the UK.
You see I suppose it all depends on when you think the life of a person begins and when personally you value the life that has been created.
when it can live dependently outside of the womb until that point the womans life who is carrying it is more important and in this case that was and is not possible its disgusting for the foetus / baby to be kept that way let alone the dead woman and her family
But its the will of the majority of the people of Ireland - you might disagree with our stance on abortion but we are a democracy and make up our own minds on such issues since independence.
Gay marriage will be passed in May 2015, we are far from a backward Catholic country (possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe over the last 20 years) but the abortion issue has always been a fundamental difference between Ireland and the UK.
Don't bother irish feen. Apparently we haven't our own minds at all... roll eyes.
I'm pro choice but I know plenty of otherwise liberal people completely anti abortion. Nothing to do with the church at all. However given that this doesn't toe the ds line on being stringently pro choice, it's easier to call us brainwashed and uncivilised.
Don't bother irish feen. Apparently we haven't our own minds at all... roll eyes.
I'm pro choice but I know plenty of otherwise liberal people completely anti abortion. Nothing to do with the church at all. However given that this doesn't toe the ds line on being stringently pro choice, it's easier to call us brainwashed and uncivilised.
It's pretty pathetic tbh.
Exactly sorcha . I too have a mind of my own , much of influenced by nursing prem babies for more years than I care to mention . Notjhing at all to do with religion
Its just one more thread with free reign to bash the Irish and look down noses at us
But its the will of the majority of the people of Ireland - you might disagree with our stance on abortion but we are a democracy and make up our own minds on such issues since independence.
Gay marriage will be passed in May 2015, we are far from a backward Catholic country (possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe over the last 20 years) but the abortion issue has always been a fundamental difference between Ireland and the UK.
More than ten countries in the EU already have same-sex marriage. Belgium, a "Catholic country" has had it since 2003. Ireland was one of the last countries in the EU to allow civil partnerships; to claim it is "possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe" is insulting to other European countries.
Don't bother irish feen. Apparently we haven't our own minds at all... roll eyes.
I'm pro choice but I know plenty of otherwise liberal people completely anti abortion. Nothing to do with the church at all. However given that this doesn't toe the ds line on being stringently pro choice, it's easier to call us brainwashed and uncivilised.
It's pretty pathetic tbh.
I haven't said that at all. Yes I'm aware that their are pro choice citizens of Ireland. My Irish Catholic family are pro choice. Why did this go to the people to be decided? Irishfeen quoted 69.9% voted against. Is that not to be expected in a predominantly Catholic country? That leaves 30% who were for this. What about them? The againsts aren't going to be forced to have abortions and they've forced the rest to be denied their choice. A woman's control over her own body and choice is what this is all about.
More than ten countries in the EU already have same-sex marriage. Belgium, a "Catholic country" has had it since 2003. Ireland was one of the last countries in the EU to allow civil partnerships; to claim it is "possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe" is insulting to other European countries.
So what if it was one of the last. What matters is it will be law.
More than ten countries in the EU already have same-sex marriage. Belgium, a "Catholic country" has had it since 2003. Ireland was one of the last countries in the EU to allow civil partnerships; to claim it is "possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe" is insulting to other European countries.
Being gay was illegal in Ireland up to 1993 - Ireland was a deeply catholic, backward country even then... for Gay marriage to become law in the space of 22 years is astonishing progress by any measure. I don't think people realise how far society in Ireland has actually come.
I haven't said that at all. Yes I'm aware that their are pro choice citizens of Ireland. My Irish Catholic family are pro choice. Why did this go to the people to be decided? Irishfeen quoted 69.9% voted against. Is that not to be expected in a predominantly Catholic country? That leaves 30% who were for this. What about them? The againsts aren't going to be forced to have abortions and they've forced the rest to be denied their choice. A woman's control over her own body and choice is what this is all about.
No 30% were against the amendment, it did not ask a direct question of legalizing abortion.
I haven't said that at all. Yes I'm aware that their are pro choice citizens of Ireland. My Irish Catholic family are pro choice. Why did this go to the people to be decided? Irishfeen quoted 69.9% voted against. Is that not to be expected in a predominantly Catholic country? That leaves 30% who were for this. What about them? The againsts aren't going to be forced to have abortions and they've forced the rest to be denied their choice. A woman's control over her own body and choice is what this is all about.
A woman doesn't abort her body, she aborts the developing baby body.
Abortion is therefore carried out on the baby's body.
More than ten countries in the EU already have same-sex marriage. Belgium, a "Catholic country" has had it since 2003. Ireland was one of the last countries in the EU to allow civil partnerships; to claim it is "possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe" is insulting to other European countries.
I doubt very much that same sex marriage will be a majority vote either. This is the attitude of the Catholic Church
Being gay was illegal in Ireland up to 1993 - Ireland was a deeply catholic, backward country even then... for Gay marriage to become law in the space of 22 years is astonishing progress by any measure. I don't think people realise how far society in Ireland has actually come.
To have made such progress in gay rights is great, but it is very far from being the most progressive country in Europe. For example, it does not recognize sex changes, even though that has been ruled incompatible with European Human Rights.
Light years away from same sex Catholic marriage and active homosexuals are still "sinners".
The Republic is a mostly Catholic country but how many of them are actively practising?
I would bet there's a brave few Catholics ignore the Pope on using condoms and most of the younger population whilst having a catholic background are less likely to be deeply religious.
Even if someone is religious it doesn't necessarily mean they are homophobic.
I do not wish to generalise but homophobia is usually more common in the older population. I say usually some older people may be accepting, some younger bigoted but in general gay people are more accepted in the young-quite young population.
I hope it does pass in the Republic next year. I predict it will.
Yes but there are different ways that people die. You couldnt compare it to someone who has deteriorated and gone into multiple organ failure. She has had bleeding in her brain which has damaged her brain stem (as far as i can gather) so there will not be any problems with her body unless her heart stopped and she was revived (no detail) I cant see there being any problem with perfusion of her placenta at any point (although I am no expert). Of course however, there will be risk of infection should they continue treatment
You underestimate the vast role the brain stem plays on other organs. It affects the autonomic nervous system, heart rate and blood pressure etc. Patients who are brain stem dead have a swinging blood pressure which is very difficult to keep stable, even with drugs. We usually need a drug called vasopressin to be administered via infusion and nurses need to adjust the rate in response to the labile blood pressure. This is tricky enough to maintain even for a few hours, let alone months.
The brain also plays a part in temperature control so brain injured patients can be extremely hyperthermic - which obviously has ramifications for the foetus. I also said she was likely to develop VAP (pneumonia) which was likely to affect the outcome.
In my previous post alluding to my experience as an ITU nurse, I could foresee this outcome - as anyone within the ITU environment could. It is terrible that the doctors in Ireland need to go to the courts for permission to do the ethical thing and end this family's suffering.
People outside of the healthcare environment seem to have a very rose-tinted view on how we keep patients alive on life support. Even when we foresee a good outcome there is a rocky path with many potential complications and set backs, not to mention the enormous cost of keeping patients on maximum life support. In the UK where there is a huge demand for ITU beds, it would be unethical to keep someone alive in these circumstances, with no hope of recovery, while denying another patient the use of that valuable ITU bed.
Is Ireland a ''progressive'' country? It has certainly made progress in the last few years but it is definitely stretching credibility to call it one of the most progressive countries in Europe.
The Republic is a mostly Catholic country but how many of them are actively practising?
I would bet there's a brave few Catholics ignore the Pope on using condoms and most of the younger population whilst having a catholic background are less likely to be deeply religious.
Even if someone is religious it doesn't necessarily mean they are homophobic.
I do not wish to generalise but homophobia is usually more common in the older population. I say usually some older people may be accepting, some younger bigoted but in general gay people are more accepted in the young-quite young population.
I hope it does pass in the Republic next year. I predict it will.
I truly hope so too but I seriously doubt it. The younger population are only part of the voting demographic. 69.9% voted for the ridiculous 8th amendment not that long ago.
Comments
This one's only 17 weeks though. Not even remotely viable.
It is 17 weeks. I also respect the wishes of her grieving family who clearly cannot cope.
So when does he or she deserve respect in your opinion ?
Yes . Both deserve respect . So who deserves more ?
I'm aware of all of that . It's a fact, by product or not.
In a Catholic dominated country that result is inevitable.
I see this new, never married or fathered a child Pope isn't budging an inch over this either. Never mind, send the poor women to the UK instead? That's allowed by the PTB isn't it? Hypocritical in the extreme.
Her family of course. They are being put through hell against their wishes, whilst the government plays God.
Would any daughter wish that on her parents or children?
It's not a question of 'respect'. It's a case of being realistic. This foetus can't survive outside of its mother's body & she's dead & decaying around it. Face facts - tragically, this pregnancy is not viable.
Gay marriage will be passed in May 2015, we are far from a backward Catholic country (possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe over the last 20 years) but the abortion issue has always been a fundamental difference between Ireland and the UK.
when it can live dependently outside of the womb until that point the womans life who is carrying it is more important and in this case that was and is not possible its disgusting for the foetus / baby to be kept that way let alone the dead woman and her family
Don't bother irish feen. Apparently we haven't our own minds at all... roll eyes.
I'm pro choice but I know plenty of otherwise liberal people completely anti abortion. Nothing to do with the church at all. However given that this doesn't toe the ds line on being stringently pro choice, it's easier to call us brainwashed and uncivilised.
It's pretty pathetic tbh.
Exactly sorcha . I too have a mind of my own , much of influenced by nursing prem babies for more years than I care to mention . Notjhing at all to do with religion
Its just one more thread with free reign to bash the Irish and look down noses at us
More than ten countries in the EU already have same-sex marriage. Belgium, a "Catholic country" has had it since 2003. Ireland was one of the last countries in the EU to allow civil partnerships; to claim it is "possibly the most progressive outward looking in Europe" is insulting to other European countries.
I haven't said that at all. Yes I'm aware that their are pro choice citizens of Ireland. My Irish Catholic family are pro choice. Why did this go to the people to be decided? Irishfeen quoted 69.9% voted against. Is that not to be expected in a predominantly Catholic country? That leaves 30% who were for this. What about them? The againsts aren't going to be forced to have abortions and they've forced the rest to be denied their choice. A woman's control over her own body and choice is what this is all about.
So what if it was one of the last. What matters is it will be law.
A woman doesn't abort her body, she aborts the developing baby body.
Abortion is therefore carried out on the baby's body.
I doubt very much that same sex marriage will be a majority vote either. This is the attitude of the Catholic Church
http://www.christianpost.com/news/irish-catholic-church-says-legalizing-gay-marriage-would-be-grave-injustice-ahead-of-nationwide-marriage-referendum-130679/
http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2014/12/05/irish-bishops-marriage-between-man-woman-is-matter-of-justice/
The Pope
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/catholic-church-gays-_n_5976134.html
Light years away from same sex Catholic marriage and active homosexuals are still "sinners".
Good grief! Even worse than I thought then and you think same sex marriage will be voted for?
To have made such progress in gay rights is great, but it is very far from being the most progressive country in Europe. For example, it does not recognize sex changes, even though that has been ruled incompatible with European Human Rights.
The Republic is a mostly Catholic country but how many of them are actively practising?
I would bet there's a brave few Catholics ignore the Pope on using condoms and most of the younger population whilst having a catholic background are less likely to be deeply religious.
Even if someone is religious it doesn't necessarily mean they are homophobic.
I do not wish to generalise but homophobia is usually more common in the older population. I say usually some older people may be accepting, some younger bigoted but in general gay people are more accepted in the young-quite young population.
I hope it does pass in the Republic next year. I predict it will.
You underestimate the vast role the brain stem plays on other organs. It affects the autonomic nervous system, heart rate and blood pressure etc. Patients who are brain stem dead have a swinging blood pressure which is very difficult to keep stable, even with drugs. We usually need a drug called vasopressin to be administered via infusion and nurses need to adjust the rate in response to the labile blood pressure. This is tricky enough to maintain even for a few hours, let alone months.
The brain also plays a part in temperature control so brain injured patients can be extremely hyperthermic - which obviously has ramifications for the foetus. I also said she was likely to develop VAP (pneumonia) which was likely to affect the outcome.
In my previous post alluding to my experience as an ITU nurse, I could foresee this outcome - as anyone within the ITU environment could. It is terrible that the doctors in Ireland need to go to the courts for permission to do the ethical thing and end this family's suffering.
People outside of the healthcare environment seem to have a very rose-tinted view on how we keep patients alive on life support. Even when we foresee a good outcome there is a rocky path with many potential complications and set backs, not to mention the enormous cost of keeping patients on maximum life support. In the UK where there is a huge demand for ITU beds, it would be unethical to keep someone alive in these circumstances, with no hope of recovery, while denying another patient the use of that valuable ITU bed.
Is Ireland a ''progressive'' country? It has certainly made progress in the last few years but it is definitely stretching credibility to call it one of the most progressive countries in Europe.
I truly hope so too but I seriously doubt it. The younger population are only part of the voting demographic. 69.9% voted for the ridiculous 8th amendment not that long ago.
Though I don't know what percentage of older people there is in the country but it has a good chance of passing.
Yes it bloody will be.